Its (usually) not the judge's fault...

[hntrjmprpro45]

I have seen in many threads recently that many believe that the judges (or our particular judging system) are the ones to blame for all of the drugging that goes on at shows. It would seem that many people think that ‘brilliance’ is either a)penalized or b) not recognized. I would just like to say, as a licensed judge, that this is almost never the case. While I haven’t been judging as long as some judges, I have sat with quite a few, been to several clinics, etc. It would appear to me (in my experience) that the majority of judges REALLY do appreciate brilliance. In fact, the horse with ears pricked forward, eyes searching for the next jump, usually do get rewarded extra with the judges.

Judges don’t want the dull horse to win. They don’t want to see a robotic horse place first. But many times, due to the lack of quality of the other horses, they do win. Judges can only judge what they see in front of them. Many times judges will CRINGE when they have to pin a horse that they really don’t like first, but sometimes that is how things play out.

As they always say, first and foremost, it is a jumping competition. The horse needs to be a good jumper with good technique. This is where I think most people get confused. It really is a special horse that can jump really round through its back, soft off the ground, knees even and in good rhythm.

Judges ARE looking for good, even pace. But it needs to fit the course. If the jumps are set in such a way that a short strided horse must really run then they probably won’t do well. Many horse/rider combinations are not capable of finding and producing REALLY good jumps from speed. That is one reason why Brunello is exceptionally good in the handy rounds. He can produce PHENOMENAL jumping efforts from a really nice gallop.

And many of the judges that I have sat with are quite tolerant of some “play” in the corners. Some more than others. I can nearly guarantee that a small head shake isn’t killing your chances at a ribbon- its more likely that there was a bad lead change that accompanied that head shake or perhaps the head shake was because the rider found a long weak distance and was left behind. Unless there are 20 other horses of nearly identical rounds, that small head shake wasn’t a factor.

So in summary, judges are usually not the ones causing the results of the show, they are just judging what they see that day. They can’t always (and shouldn’t need to) know the backstory of every horse that walks into the ring. They won’t know whether the horse was drugged or just quiet. They won’t know if the horse was lunged for hours or just laid back. They can’t guess what the horse/rider might/should look like on its good days. They can’t make any assumptions other than what they see.

[RugBug]

Too bad you started your own thread on this instead of adding it to the other…it’s a good post.

@hntrjmprpro45;8309393

I have seen in many threads recently that many believe that the judges (or our particular judging system) are the ones to blame for all of the drugging that goes on at shows.

I don’t think judges are to blame for drugging, but I do think judging standards are partially to blame. It’s a subtle, but important difference. I also think course design is partially to blame. And riders wanting quiet horses and racing into the show ring. And trainers being on the road so much. And parents that want precious Suzie to win, etc. There are a lot of factors that come into play and no single one can be blamed.

Many horse/rider combinations are not capable of finding and producing REALLY good jumps from speed. That is one reason why Brunello is exceptionally good in the handy rounds. He can produce PHENOMENAL jumping efforts from a really nice gallop.

the definition of “REALLY good” jump has been distorted to mean the effort a horse makes from a slow canter over a jump with width (which isn’t it really depth and not width?*) and does not take into play how the horse lands. Horses can jump well from pace. There are plenty of jumpers out there proving it daily.

[MintHillFarm]

Well said, hntrjmprpro45 - I am a Judge as well, we can only judge what we see in front of us…

[DMK]

But we didn’t do our sport any favors the day we decided eight belly-up-to-the-bar “10” jumps that land in a heap on the backside beat a horse who jumped out of pace, but maybe looked like an 8 jump. That’s not written anywhere, but outside of the derbies (which do favor more brilliance), that’s what wins, all things being equal.

That’s not Just Judges, that’s caused by a whole lot of factors - we have a group of riders who like to crawl between fences, we have courses that favor that style, we have judges who reward that style and rules that at the very least, don’t set a standard against it. It’s pretty depressing from where I sit, but obviously there is no shortage of people who enjoy it.

[msj]

I’m certainly not a current hunter/jumper rider but was way back in the 60’s to early 70’s. I also realize that times have changed and, for the rider’s sake, the best. When I did hunters, the junior’s were 3’6" and there were lovely outside rolling courses. Absolutely NOTHING lower. Jumpers started at 4’ and went up 6" each jump off. But that aside, judges can only pick from what’s shown to them. If the pick in a handy hunter class consists of pluggy paints and QH’s and the occasional wamblood and OTTB that are not performing well, the judge is very limited for his picks.

Again this was many years ago when Roger Young(now deceased) and his wife were judging I was showing a rather green TB mare. Not chestnut but she may as well have been… :sigh: I picked up the wrong canter lead right in front of Roger, realized it as she struck off, and within about 3 strides had her going on the correct lead. I KNEW that killed our chances of pinning anywhere. When the results were read off, bottom to top ribbon, I wasn’t surprised that I hadn’t even placed in 8th place but was flabberghasted when I won the class. So surprised and shocked that I rode over to Roger and asked why he pinned me when I took off on the wrong lead. He said I corrected it very quietly within 3 stides and there was no other horse in the ring that had any class or brilliance that would have deserved the blue.

That’s when I realized that you could make a mistake and still do well. It also lead me to work on my judges card. I will admit after working hard one summer and forgetting what a weekend off was and frequently doing 4 day shows, I decided judges were NOT paid enough for what they had to do in the beating down sun, pouring rain and just plain dusty rings and never bothered.

Also the next horse I had was not hunter/jumper material. I was lucky enough to have had a great Irish trainer that taught me that you do what your horse does well even if it’s not what you initially wanted to do meaning some horses are meant for hunters or jumpers or dressage or even bold enough for eventing.

I’ve had friends who would come home from a show empty-handed and bwitch about the judging being poor and were only happy with the judging when they came home in the ribbons. Other friends who were quite humble about the judging. The 2nd set were the real riders.

[Plumcreek]

The other part of all this is that trainers have to work with the owner/rider who comes through the barn door in today’s world. I am a child of the 60s who lived in the country and my friends and I bombed around hill, dale, and beach bareback during the week, and rode proper equitation in our lessons on Sat, and at the local shows. Todays riders both junior and re-rider adults are more suburban based, start and end in the ring (for the most part), are fast-tracked to showing, and are less adept when unscripted things happen on course. Trainers have to train for this reality, and it involves the same issues and preparation solutions in every facet of horse showing, from Western World ( the Holy Grail of a rock steady consistent horse) to the mechanical hunter that will go around safely for its owner.

All this has nothing to do with multiple tubes of calmer for a Derby horse like Inclusive with a rider like TC, but that prep program may be what enables such a fabulous horse to be sold to a future in the AO or even AA ring.

[scrbear11]

So, what’s being said, is that we, as riders, need to learn to ride? Not being a smart ass by any means, but if Tori Colvin is the child prodigy rider she is constantly praised as being, why does her mount, with more mileage than my truck, need drugs?

Maybe that’s something we will never know. Does Inclusive have a 10 jump- sure does. He’s round, soft, with his knees to his chin every time. Maybe the drugs slow his rhythm down so he can jump that way every time?

Or maybe we all just need Unicorns (or the clone of Brunello).

[DMK]

I suspect it is just more banal than that.

Clearly the kid can ride, she’s proven that in all three disciplines. I think it just never occurs to some people that you shouldn’t “prep” the horse within an inch of its life (or right on past that, for that matter), regardless of whether the horse “needs” it or the rider can actually ride circles around 95% of his/her fellow competitors without that prep.

[Plumcreek]

[QUOTE=DMK;8311739]
I suspect it is just more banal than that.

Clearly the kid can ride, she’s proven that in all three disciplines. I think it just never occurs to some people that you shouldn’t “prep” the horse within an inch of its life (or right on past that, for that matter), regardless of whether the horse “needs” it or the rider can actually ride circles around 95% of his/her fellow competitors without that prep.[/QUOTE]

Insurance

[DMK]

exactly.