Agree. I also think the one hour format of lessons can be a problem, especially when the lesson is about teaching both rider and horse.
Active training of a new thing must be much shorter, say ten minutes then let it go.
Also lessons make it hard for the rider to really listen to the horse. If the coach says try one more time, it’s very hard to say nope, my horse is done, without sounding like a bad student.
Thinking of these guys, but also the NH guys who are on the other end of the spectrum, I have a feeling that all of these decisions about making horses endure some training that’s not well-suited to them is about a business model.
In the NH case-- where the goal really is to train the horse is a way that’s quite tuned in to his opinion-- the expensive, weekend clinics nevertheless ask horses to stay in a lesson, to some degree, for anywhere from three hours to all day. I am loath to do this to a horse. Various NH guys have had reasons for thinking this isn’t too hard on a horse. We can discuss those if you want, but I know that I haven’t ridden mine in a way that prepares them for such a boot-camp like experience. But these guys make their money driving around the country giving clinics, so you get the boot-camp pedagogy.
Hey, it could be worse: They could imply that you can learn to train your particular horse (and learn to read him) by watching video of them working with another horse.
In the exacting, Cornille-esque style of really controlling the horse’s movement to a fine degree, I think ignoring the horse’s mounting tension or, much worse, his checking out, has to do with how hard it is to teach this feel to the rider. Ideally, you would do this on a horse for 10 minutes and/or get on change his posture to a good place quickly and adeptly so that it didn’t take 30 minutes of a rider delivering the occasional good couple of steps amid a ton of near-misses. If you already know what an uphill, or uphill and squatting horse feels like, you can much better and much faster put the next horse there. But what if you don’t? So these guys have to teach in that “green leading the green” scenario, and it’s hard.
And I have seen plenty of lessons and clinics where the horse stays on a 20 m circle of a good 40 minutes while it looks like he’s being asked to attend to (and care about) minute changes. Does he? I always worry that the horse, after a much shorter period, just can’t see the point and starts phoning it in. We take that for his being relaxed and/or supple and obedient. I do think dressage riders, similarly, need to spend a lot of time developing their feel and maybe those lesson are just a bummer for the horse.
In Big Eq world, it’s common to have a “practice horse,” in addition to the good one you’ll show because people need to jump more jumps and courses and combinations than one horse can take.
The best hunter trainers will tell you that horses need gymnastics, and few of those, each modified constantly to make a point to the horse. It’s the client who needs the practice over the courses and the courses actually wear on the horse and degrade his jumping style.
So there’s plenty of bad pedagogy for horses to be found in lots of disciplines.
I’ve disliked JLC since I got into it with him on Facebook about rope halters, which are apparently incredibly abusive to even have on your horse, no matter what kind of rope halter it is. I was basically told I am a horrible abusive owner if I ever put a rope halter on a horse.
He just seems incredibly full of himself. If you have to try to make yourself sound smart, you probably aren’t as smart as you think.
That’s surprising, given the french emphasis on having a horse light to the aids. And, from what I have heard from a pro who took lessons from him, he is not afraid to turn up the pressure on a horse rather quickly if he thinks that’s what’s needed.
I take 2 lessons a week. I so appreciate the kind approach of my trainer when we (sometimes me, sometimes my horse sometimes a combination of both) are struggling with mastering or executing an exercise. When we are able to accomplish it even if it’s for a short time my trainer will often say good job. Come back to the walk, kick your feet out of the stirrups, loosen your reins, and praise your horse. Then trainer will walk alongside me for a time just to let my horse and me soak a bit. And we have a conversation about the mechanics of the ride and a quiet appreciation of the small victory earned. Then we will generally work on something else for a bit, then towards the end of the lesson revisit the task that seemed so difficult previously. Seems magical but letting the horse and me have that small victory then a bit of reflection always works. And I am
grateful for the time afforded in the hour lesson without drilling) that allows us both to progress.
PS when I was in a heavily regimented hunter program years ago JLC came to our barn. I did not ride in the clinic, just audited. I didn’t understand WTF he was saying the majority of the time. And it wasn’t so much the accent, it just sounded like gooblygook. I just figured he existed on a higher equine astral plane and I wasn’t worthy. It’s kind of validating to realize maybe he was just bloviating.
i’m a bad student!! I always an ready for the lesson to end…usually in 45 mins. These days i’m taking along a second horse for a tiny session of mounting and walking with me aboard a few meters. So whatever horse i have in for the ‘real’ lesson doesn’t have to go the whole time.
And whenever i feel like it is a good time to endm i say: Ok, we’re done! and hop off. Last week i let her(coach) put us through several transitions and when she said that one of them was perfect i was off my horse in half a second. Coach said something about how repetitions can lead to good things. And maybe they can with that buckskin gelding of mine, but repetition drives my mare nuts. (unless it’s any kind of lateral movement…cause she will do THAT all daylong)
Perfect word for his behavior! “Bloviating.” Some things he says are valid, some are nonsense, some are just wrong.
I suspect really.like most, so I appreciate taking the best out of each.
I do feel as though some instructors can get a bit greedy. They also might not know or be able to feel the horse. My horse doesn’t do well with drilling. If he does a stellar half pass, ok then on to something else, he doesn’t need to do 5 more. With him, once he’s done it well, he’s got it, it’s installed.
I like to practice things and make sure they are confirmed, but don’t drill them. Maybe some horses need this, but most of mine haven’t.
I’ve actually spent 2 rides now undoing our last riding lesson from the trainer I mentioned previously. I tried to voice my concerns, and maybe I should’ve been like, “I’m done here” but I wanted to end the lesson decently since this I run into this instructor often.
Some times repetition is really helpful, sometimes it is definitly time to stop. So many variables at play, from the horse’s brain, temperament, level of training, fitness, rider fitness, weather, etc etc.
Exactly. A good trainer can feel and know this.
One recognized my horse wasn’t quite strong enough yet to maintain a certain level of demanding work, another insisted we push and push. If he’s got nothing left in the tank, so to speak, why is forcing and fighting with a tired horse even worth it? To me, it’s not. We slowly improve fitness and slowly expand his abilities/endurance. I want this horse to last and feel good in his body.
If I only run 5k’s I’m not about to go out and expect myself to run a half marathon with a competitive time. I’ve got to work up to it. Otherwise that’s how we get injuries and mental set backs, IMO.
We also can’t take advantage of the horses nature; In that they want to please us and be obedient.
My absolute favorite part of watching a Laura Graves symposium was she repeated over and over in the 2 days, “you know your horse better than I do, so any time your horse needs a break tell me. You have to advocate for your horse.” And any time someone said their horse needed a break she immediately allowed it. She never seemed to push horses much really- she only pushed riders out of their comfort zones if they wanted to restrain too much, but still kindly and all rides went well.
I heard that riding facility is looking at producing a documentary on JLC.
In addition to winning international competitions himself, he taught Margit Otto Crepin and he trained jumpers for Melanie Smith Taylor.
There is certainly a phenomenon whereby person is legitimately pretty good at something as a younger person. Then somethung makes them go off track in some way in middle and old age. They become professionally isolated, and go down a rabbit hole of their own devising, or adopt odd theories, or become narcisstic blowhards. European trainers that land in North America, especially those that wanted out of the structured European system, can end up getting a little odd in places where they are the biggest fish in the pond and there is no true peer input just a world of newbies to impress.
He actually did compete internationally quite successfully. He also taught Margit Otto Crepin and trained horses for Melanie Smith Taylor and currently has an FEI champing driving client. One would have to have been around long enough to know that. His people skills blow, and people love to hate him, but he definitely has skills and a worthy track record. Whoever markets him is an idot and they run a nasty little cult for profit. (I have a young relative in his forum and the shit he talks about people…oh my. And they’re not allowed to be fb friends with anyone who is not “approved” or they get booted. Cult all the way.) But the skill is there for sure just the mental health is not. It’s unfortunate.
Yes, that’s my sense too. Unfortunately skills with mental health issues can be a toxic mix, especially if the mental health issues tend towards narcissism.
I mean in other fields we get things like doctors who obviously were able to complete med school in their 20s who later in life go off the rails with pet theories, especially after retirement.
One of the signs of this happening is if the person has meaningful relationships with peers that can provide feedback and evaluation or if they are totally isolated from others in their field and preaching to folks who have no grounds to evaluate their claims.
Then the real skills of the person can get lost under their inflated claims and wrong headed ideas and emotional manipulation.
I do think it’s strange that there’s this large group of people who say that you must be able to ride any horse in a smooth non-leverage typed snaffle, and that anything else is a training issue.
Same people defend the use of a shank or a rope halter. Whut?
Rope halters work better at controlling than a flat halter because… shanks too…
I’m all about riding and working with the horse in front of me. Would it be nice if every horse went perfectly in a smooth snaffle? Sure. But not all will, especially when speed starts getting involved.
It is a training issue at some level. But that doesn’t mean it’s a training issue that you can fix in this lifetime with this horse in this circumstance.
The kernel of truth here is that horses can still pull and bolt in a leverage bit (saw it all the time as a teen riding Western) and that just going up to a harsher bit isn’t going to fix all your problems. Indeed, it’s easier to do a one rein stop in a snaffle than a curb.
On the other hand, there are things in both dressage and Western that you need a curb to advance to. And if you need a Pelham or something to have fun at speed on your jumper or fox hunter or eventer and not die, that is a wise choice.
I don’t think you know how rope halters and leverage bits fit into a training philosophy that differs dramatically from that built around a snaffle.
I do think any horse should be able to go in a snaffle. I also think no horse going in a leverage bit should be there because it takes pain delivered to the mouth (or threat of that) to control him. And rope halters are fairer to a horse than is a halter with a chain. Not only does the rope halter provide a more varied range of signals to the horse, but it also lets go a bit faster.
But to see any of this, you’d have to learn a lot about both Western and English styles of training. Each side seen from just the other can be misunderstood.
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