Jeremy Steinberg article- Trainers teaching amateurs

[soloudinhere]

@Scribbler

I have seen ammies’ equitation get worse through dressage lessons.

They learn to balance on the reins, lean back, kick at every stride. By and large they and their horses plateau.

My own coach is a stickler for equitation, and everything she insists on actually affects the horse under you. I had an ahah moment last year when I found that if I engaged my core I could get a reliable square trot halt out of schoolmaster mare and if I had a relaxed core she fell out in the halt.

Leg seat and hand position does affect the horse dramatically and good equitation lessons are not about nitpicking externals but rather working on the basics.

We keep comparing dressage equitation to hunter equitation. Hunter equitation is exactly what I described - perfecting looking pretty on a horse. Forget the medal finals level riders, I’m talking about the local level riders jumping 2’ on a horse with auto changes. They are learning how to look a certain way, do things a certain way that the judges want to see.

What you are all calling “equitation” is riding skill. It’s semantics, but what you are describing is not equitation in the sense that it’s been referred to elsewhere in the thread, which is learning to sit pretty on a broke equitation horse. Trying to do the same thing on a dressage schoolmaster won’t teach you to ride dressage. That’s what we always tell people who say you can buy medals with a nice enough horse. So which is it? Either that’s the key to dressage success, or it’s impossible. Can’t be both.

”‹”‹”‹”‹

[dr_j]

@Lucassb

But the thing that really stood out to me in the article was the notion of respect. Or rather, the lack of respect that many (not all) trainers/clinicians have for the adult amateur customer - and the impact that has on the sport.

And personally, I think that is spot freaking on. Amateurs, grass roots, pick a label- are the underpinning of this sport, and frankly we are the foundation of most trainers’ businesses. It can be a bit shocking though to see the lack of regard or respect that many professionals have for their clients.

This. I ridden my whole life with “breaks” for career/children etc type of reasons. I know a lot about horses. I have spent much more on training for my horses than training for me. BUT I still want to ride… and do - and am very realistic about my own goals or lack thereof.

The resounding issue I have with clinics like Sternberg describes is exactly the lack of respect. Many Adult Amateurs are PROFESSIONALS in other endeavors. Many, many of them BIG TIME professionals. Often in areas involving horses or horse sport or large business,finance etc. And frankly in a lot of situations if those AA had put the same time and effort into riding as they did into their profession, they would be better than the now equine professional treating them with condescension.

Of course I am not going to ride as well as the trainer/instructor who has ridden 10 horses a day for 25 years… those same 25 years that AA was perfecting THEIR profession - and I guarantee you if that equine professional sought advice/instruction from that AA in their area of expertise, the vast majority of them would be treated as a FELLOW professionals.

[BigMama1]

I agree with a lot of what Jeremy says, but not his derision for the expensive, “big-name” up the levels clinics where the clinician gets to see the horses go privately the day before and the (usually professional) riding participants don’t want to be humiliated in public.

This type of even is not a clinic designed to help the rider or fix an issue with a horse. It is a symposium designed to entertain the audience. The participants are demonstration riders, chosen to demonstrate a particular level or set of movements. The audience gets an understanding of the level, how to improve particular movements within it, and invariably (in my experience at least) gets to see even a professional’s horse improve under the guidance of the BNT.

That’s a very different set up than a real clinic, which is hosted for the benefit of the rider participants, not the auditors.

[anon55755751]

There’s the right way to focus on equitation and the wrong way. The wrong way nit-picks at details. The right way fosters a straight, balanced, and effective rider with an independent seat. I’d venture to say that average instructors that claim they “focus on position” nit-pick at details without making a real impact on balance and independence. What you ask the horse to do and how you ask it to go matters in developing equitation because that’s how you test and improve balance, straightness, and independence of you position. You do not develop good equitation in a vacuum.

However, IME we (in US dressage), we are too far in the opposite direction - as a group, we too easily justify “effective but inelegant” as acceptable. I have been reasonably effective but inelegant (we all are most of the time to some degree!). Once I started riding with someone who made substantial changes to my straightness and balance in the saddle (rather than just nit-picking at details), I became much much much more effective. Like, not even close. A whole different world of connection with and influence of the horse was opened to me. I had timing and feel and sensitivity and some amount of effectiveness before this - I’d spent 20 years developing it, but I was always asking the question “Am I doing it right? Is the horse doing it right?”

The biggest change after improving my position: The amount of clarity in what to do with my body to effect a change without getting in the horse’s way. That’s when the horse’s response to my aids became blindingly clear feedback: “Yes, I understood.”, “Yes, but there’s more I can give, do you want more?”, “Wait, I’m unsure.”, “I’m trying, is this what you’re looking for?”

As a rider with zero talent - everything I do competently is a wholly learned skill - good equitation is 100% absolutely essential to me being able to do anything well in dressage. I’m wary of people who claim to “focus on position instead of scores” b/c of nit-picking that never addresses real problems. But I’m also wary of people who are effective but inelegant and pooh-pooh equitation and have positional flaws that imply they will ignore any bad habits I may develop to my detriment.

[mvp]

@soloudinhere

We keep comparing dressage equitation to hunter equitation. Hunter equitation is exactly what I described - perfecting looking pretty on a horse. Forget the medal finals level riders, I’m talking about the local level riders jumping 2’ on a horse with auto changes. They are learning how to look a certain way, do things a certain way that the judges want to see.

What you are all calling “equitation” is riding skill. It’s semantics, but what you are describing is not equitation in the sense that it’s been referred to elsewhere in the thread, which is learning to sit pretty on a broke equitation horse. Trying to do the same thing on a dressage schoolmaster won’t teach you to ride dressage. That’s what we always tell people who say you can buy medals with a nice enough horse. So which is it? Either that’s the key to dressage success, or it’s impossible. Can’t be both.

”‹”‹”‹”‹

I was the one that brought up Hunter Equitation so you need to see if I meant the lowest form of that, as you claim. I did not.

I don’t know why you need to give such an ungenerous reading to a discipline that serves many, many people learning to ride. It serves many more horses who get the benefit of a rider who is taught the value of trying hard to improve herself so as to give them a more tactful, comfortable ride. The equitation division at horse shows-- from the elite Big Eq down to little kids in cross rail classes has been part of a system for making show jumping riders that consistently win at the Olympic level.

I don’t mean to just return your mean fire, but god-damn! When American dressage develops a system for producing consistent Olympic greatness, let me know. In the meantime, it might work better to imagine that there might be something more to hunt seat equitation that the most reductive version the term I offered.

[dresseur]

Equitation is the art and practice of horsemanship and horse riding and encompasses not only the riders position, but effectiveness of the aids. Yes, there are a gaggle of people that never get beyond “equitating” because they may not have the right instructor or be interested in the history and theory. But proper alignment and proper position is the gateway to becoming actually effective - and being effective takes time and experience.

Sure, there are some things that can be overlooked - but as mvp states - the equitation divisions are meant to give people a baseline of proper position which can then be parlayed into effective, experienced riders. I also started as a hunter rider, and I had good coaches that did the circuit and did well (not BNT, but people who wrote and trained with the BNTs), that taught me about a solid base and a flat back, and rider alignment etc., they didn’t understand the mechanics of throughness, or effective half halts - and in that way, dressage was mind blowing. The the better my position got, the more effective I got and the more subtle and nuanced I could get - which meant that when I got to ride the GP horses, I was able to execute in pretty short order, especially when that was layered in on the theory.

That’s what Jeremy is talking about imo - a system that teaches riders to be effective and to be able to think for themselves - to create real riders. And yes, he is a stickler on position in a huge way.

[Lucassb]

@dr j

This. I ridden my whole life with “breaks” for career/children etc type of reasons. I know a lot about horses. I have spent much more on training for my horses than training for me. BUT I still want to ride… and do - and am very realistic about my own goals or lack thereof.

The resounding issue I have with clinics like Sternberg describes is exactly the lack of respect. Many Adult Amateurs are PROFESSIONALS in other endeavors. Many, many of them BIG TIME professionals. Often in areas involving horses or horse sport or large business,finance etc. And frankly in a lot of situations if those AA had put the same time and effort into riding as they did into their profession, they would be better than the now equine professional treating them with condescension.

Of course I am not going to ride as well as the trainer/instructor who has ridden 10 horses a day for 25 years… those same 25 years that AA was perfecting THEIR profession - and I guarantee you if that equine professional sought advice/instruction from that AA in their area of expertise, the vast majority of them would be treated as a FELLOW professionals.

Thanks. THIS issue was what I was hoping we’d discuss. (Not that equitation isn’t important / worthy of discussion as well.)

But your point, @dr j , is well made and I think that Jeremy’s message was to raise the issue of why the lack of regard for the AA who wants to learn and improve - even, gasp! if they are on an average or god forbid, difficult horse - is a huge issue.

Maybe this is a particularly sensitive topic for me at the moment - I just had a parting of ways with a professional who treated my business with a lack of respect I wasn’t willing to put up with. But I have found this question pertinent for a long time and it is discussed, in one way or another, most days on COTH in the various forums. I recall an absolutely amazing letter written many years ago in COTH by the mother of a junior rider who’d been treated with so much disrespect that she wrote an article about it - basically an open letter to the industry’s professionals. And things don’t seem to have changed much.

So why is it, that professionals so often (not all, and not always but many times) treat their amateur clients with such condescension and disregard?? And what can be done to change that?

[fordtraktor]

Gosh, this thread makes me so grateful for my current trainer.

I have seen this before, though, in hunter/jumper land. I remember one show where I was having problems with a horse and my trainer started yelling and cursing at me in the warmup. I am normally the quietest and most even-tempered person, but I looked him in the eye and said quietly, “Don’t you DARE speak to me like that again.” He didn’t and we worked together for many more fruitful years.

We amateurs don’t have to take abuse, or sidelining, or being seen as a sponsor rather than a rider, or anything else. This is supposed to be fun. I do my best to respect and support my trainer and her goals, and I expect (and get) the same courtesy from her.

[mvp]

Maybe it’s time to have an ammy write her own article about what she wants to buy/support with her horsing dollar.

[fordtraktor]

@mvp

Maybe it’s time to have an ammy write her own article about what she wants to buy/support with her horsing dollar.

Or half a dozen of us! It is all a little different I think.

[mvp]

@fordtraktor

Or half a dozen of us! It is all a little different I think.

I don’t think so! So many of you (and me, now that I re-read one of my posts) just want professionalism from professional horse trainers and instructors. I was part of discussions in the H/J world about what the “grass roots” wanted and it seemed a whole lot more diverse than what I see ammies talking about in this thread.

[2tempe]

@Lucassb

Thanks. THIS issue was what I was hoping we’d discuss. (Not that equitation isn’t important / worthy of discussion as well.)

So why is it, that professionals so often (not all, and not always but many times) treat their amateur clients with such condescension and disregard?? And what can be done to change that?

I absolutely do not mean this to be flip - but the answer is likely “because they can”. Those who live in a dressage -sparse area and dont have much choice are one situation. IMO there exists a group of ammies whose needs are met by being “affiliated” with a BNT. That value is higher than the reality of how they are treated - another situation.

Then there are those who dont know any better - they have picked a trainer and think they are making progress - maybe yes and maybe no, but are lacking motivation or exposure to other possible options,

It not really possible for us ammy riders or anyone else to change a person’s nature. We can only change our own behaviors or at least understand them.

[Ubu_Goober]

@soloudinhere

… he has never wasted time niggling about my position unless the position influences the movement…

I’m in the camp that thinks that position (or maybe more correctly posture) more or less always influences the movement as it has a direct bearing on the clarity and quality of the aids.

@Bogey2 - totally agree. You got in there first as I was slowwwwly organizing my brain. ETA: Or at least your post just popped up in front of me as I was finishing mine.

[IdahoRider]

I understand the point he is making and agree with him 100%. As an older AA, a para rider and someone on a limited budget, I have had to kiss some frogs to find someone who will teach me on the horse I have. I have had the instructor who I rode for years with and never got beyond a trot (“Abort, abort, abort! It has to be perfect first”). This was on my sainted Arab who tired hard every day.

Then there was the instructor who really worked with me, as long as I could afford three or four lessons a week. Then there was the up and coming young woman who was trying to fund her own riding goals by teaching. She was good, but unless you were willing to have your horse in training with her AND take multiple lessons a week, you got the time that was left over and God forbid you had work conflicts or family obligations.

I am now with a fourth instructor (my fourth in 20 years). She is a professional, so not trying to hide her income to remain an AA. She started with an “off breed”. She has children and a family. And she gets it. Plus? She is a really good teacher. She knows what it feels like, physically and mentally, to work so hard for the tiniest improvement.

I was honest with her and told her I might never want to show. And certainly not show outside of our community. And she was okay with that. No pressure to show. And when I told her that I wanted to be the rider, not share rides with a trainer, she was okay with that, too. Although it meant less money for her, she understood and supported my desire to be the rider. Not pay for a professional to ride the horse I am perfectly capable of riding.

The part that broke my heart is when I had a chance to speak with her after a clinic that she had put together with a trainer from the east coast. She wanted to know why I never signed up for any of the clinics that came through the barn. I responded that I didn’t think I was good enough to benefit. And her comment was that anyone who can get on a horse should be made to feel welcome. And it broke my heart because I had never gotten that message.

I have attended two BNT clinics/symposium before. Like BIG names. And each one had rider after rider that was a professional and on client’s horse. Although it was wonderful to watch such talented riders on such talented horses, there was very little I could take home and use with my old, stiff and sore body on my little Arab that tried so hard to keep himself underneath me. And yet, people like me are called the lifeblood of the sport. And yet we get relegated to whatever time the professionals have left over, after they have ridden the horses that are a “pro ride”, and taught the AA that wants to get their medals and ride a made horse that cost more than my house and car combined.

The question isn’t so much is this happening, but why we allow it. As true AA riders (and not the professional AA rider), on our completely ordinary horses that don’t have initials with their names, why do we let ourselves be pushed aside? Why are we made to feel guilty for just wanting to ride and become as good as we can become?
Sheilah

[angelssix]

I was with a trainer for a couple of years that was a smart woman, an excellent horsewoman, as in she knew as much about horses as you could know without actually being a vet. She taught me so much about horsemanship, but as an instructor, she definitely lacked.

She nitpicked constantly about the simplest of things to the point where we were stopping every turn around the arena. I was gaining absolutely nothing there. Sometimes you just need to RIDE to figure it out. I was still not comfortable letting the horse go forward at that point. I needed to get past THAT.

She was abusive to staff and could be downright rude to her boarders as well. She cussed me out one night while I was helping her put the horses to bed. That was the breaking point.

I learned a lot from watching horses in lessons with other people and realizing that I could tell when a horse was doing what it should be or if the rider was doing what it should be. But putting up with constant nit-picking and abusive talk is never a good thing and creates discouragement and resentment.

There are instructors that are aware they are potentially holding a rider back. It’s a loss of income once that person outgrows them, and they know it. If there is a barn that some people take lessons at for years and never show or do anything with the horse, pay attention. One of the people in the barn knew that if she didn’t take lessons every week, she would be out the door faster than a bucket of dirty water. So she did that, week after week. Such a waste of money (her horse was a disaster).

I think we need to stop thinking about loyalty and start thinking about improvement and what really works. Not every trainer is a rider and not every rider is a trainer. I know a lady that I think is a terrific rider. I would love to get lessons from her. But she is incredibly honest when she says to me that she doesn’t want to teach people because she doesn’t know how to tell them how to do what she does.

So the onus is on us to determine what works and what doesn’t, isn’t it?

[NJRider]

[QUOTE=angelssix;n10643542
I think we need to stop thinking about loyalty and start thinking about improvement and what really works. Not every trainer is a rider and not every rider is a trainer. I know a lady that I think is a terrific rider. I would love to get lessons from her. But she is incredibly honest when she says to me that she doesn’t want to teach people because she doesn’t know how to tell them how to do what she does.

So the onus is on us to determine what works and what doesn’t, isn’t it?

[/QUOTE]

This is so well stated. It is very hard to see AA’s taken advantage of and be used as gravy train providers. There is a big name clinician that comes regularly, who is very good and a lot of the participants are the AA clients (more like sponsors) of a YR turned trainer. The clinician is so good, and tries very hard to convey the fact that there are so many holes and makes great suggestions and really engages, and the YR/trainer just sits there and rolls their eyes and makes snarkey comments about the clients (“yeah, so and so won’t listen, or I have been TELLING her that”). It is sad but these AA riders are adults and not stupid people. It is ultimately up to them after they pay $350 a lesson with a BNT to go back to their YR trainer and ask questions and have their eyes opened as to WHY between BNT clinics he says the same things and they are not making progress. I think a lot of AA’s just like the social experience of lessons and chit chat, like going out to lunch. It is their money in the end, I suppose.

[dresseur]

I’m also very grateful to my coach. It’s funny, Andrea basically makes her living on ammy’s (and training horses) because she pushes them. They want to improve, and she takes the time to improve their riding so that they can ride their own horses. A lot of her current clients actually started with the owner of the farm she previously worked with, but he wouldn’t give them the time of day, so they switched to her. When she left, they and their horses followed.

[eightpondfarm]

i doubt my new coach will be able to string-me-along. But she’s going to try! i do believe i’ve seen that already: without even meeting me yet, she’s offered to start/restart a my horse for me. She said she has the room available to take in a new horse. …Now, i could give her the benefit of the doubt, that she was concerned that i couldn’t ride my own horses?? But realistically, i feel all she wants the income. (Because, that was after i told her what my one and only true goal was: to become a better rider.) But, i’m keeping an open mind.

I will focus her into teaching me, or i will be gone. I’m pretty direct, and i’ll ask plenty of questions until i understand. The way i figure things is i am paying her money to teach me right here and right now. I want to have her head in the now. Not future with me, or my horses or my money. Lets just focus on here and now. And i’m pretty sure i can direct her…and redirect her, as many times as needed.

Before connecting with this teacher, i asked-around. I trusted the sources who roundly directed me to her. The main things i liked about her are: A) she’ll take “anybody” and B) she loves to teach.

i really can’t wait to meet her and start lessons. She already knows a couple of my horses actually. She specifically asked for first one, (tall, long legged dapple palomino curly young mare) then when i told her about the stifle injury, agreed to start with the older tall rangey gray arab mare. And she knows my end-goal is to do this dressage journey with one of my mustangs.

[MissAriel]

@IdahoRider

The question isn’t so much is this happening, but why we allow it. As true AA riders (and not the professional AA rider), on our completely ordinary horses that don’t have initials with their names, why do we let ourselves be pushed aside? Why are we made to feel guilty for just wanting to ride and become as good as we can become?
Sheilah

I can only speak for myself, but when it comes right down to it, it takes effort to push back - possibly a lot of effort. As a true AA with a career and a family and other priorities, riding a horse with average gaits, that is effort I would rather put somewhere else. I am fortunate to be in a place with plenty of options, spanning the range from perennial Intro-Training riders to Olympians, and have found a good fit for me with a trainer that works with my limitations, but also encourages me to push beyond.

I have attended BNT symposia with top name riders on top quality horses. They can be entertaining and inspiring, even if the nuances of the coaching are lost on me.

I have also audited BNT clinics where the focus was on teaching the rider, not on entertaining the auditors (as it should be) and gone home with some tips and exercises. Mostly, I appreciate seeing riders at all levels work on the same things - connection, balance, throughness, regardless of where they are in their training.

I would dearly love for USDF to produce a series of videos or clinics for the average horse and rider. Those new test clinics would be great if at least half of the rides were from pairs that scored no more than 6-7 on gaits, for example.

I do sometimes get frustrated when I hear of trainers that complain of students not listening, etc. instead of helping the student find a way to achieve the desired result. When you hear a trainer say “I keep telling her to get the horse more forward/round/on the bit, and she doesn’t listen” that trainer needs to be thinking “How can I explain this differently or break it down in smaller bits so she can do what I am asking?” Trainers do this all the time teaching horses - break it down in smaller chunks, change the question if they get frustrated, try a different approach or aid - maybe they should do more of that when teaching riders.

[Scribbler]

@eightpondfarm

i doubt my new coach will be able to string-me-along. But she’s going to try! i do believe i’ve seen that already: without even meeting me yet, she’s offered to start/restart a my horse for me. She said she has the room available to take in a new horse. …Now, i could give her the benefit of the doubt, that she was concerned that i couldn’t ride my own horses?? But realistically, i feel all she wants the income. (Because, that was after i told her what my one and only true goal was: to become a better rider.) But, i’m keeping an open mind.

I will focus her into teaching me, or i will be gone. I’m pretty direct, and i’ll ask plenty of questions until i understand. The way i figure things is i am paying her money to teach me right here and right now. I want to have her head in the now. Not future with me, or my horses or my money. Lets just focus on here and now. And i’m pretty sure i can direct her…and redirect her, as many times as needed.

Before connecting with this teacher, i asked-around. I trusted the sources who roundly directed me to her. The main things i liked about her are: A) she’ll take “anybody” and B) she loves to teach.

i really can’t wait to meet her and start lessons. She already knows a couple of my horses actually. She specifically asked for first one, (tall, long legged dapple palomino curly young mare) then when i told her about the stifle injury, agreed to start with the older tall rangey gray arab mare. And she knows my end-goal is to do this dressage journey with one of my mustangs.

Though you are the person with 26 horses including 6 feral unhandled BLM mustangs arriving imminently that you bought off video that you want to learn dressage on? Trainer might legitimately think you have your hands rather full!