Jeremy Steinberg article- Trainers teaching amateurs

[Scribbler]

@Texel

This bears repeating. I think that most of us here care enough about riding that we want to see ourselves make improvements throughout life, and it can be hard to understand the perspective of someone who truly just sees riding as a low key hobby. But those people don’t deserve lesser just because they may not have the means or aspirations to move up. Maybe that kind of client isn’t everyone’s cup of tea, but I’ve seen some rhetoric here that is coming dangerously close to suggesting that riders with low aspirations don’t deserve to be with any sort of competent trainer at all.

I think that a rider who really wants to make progress and lives in an area with some options will eventually find the trainer that works good enough for them.

I would also say that low aspirations are not the same as no aspirations.

An older ammie with confidence issues, maybe some health limitations, and a safe but greenish off breed horse wants to eventually school and show first level but maybe also wants global skills to feel safe on easy trail rides. That person might take a long time to be comfortable cantering or pushing up into a true working trot, even. But they also need the reassurance of regular lessons. They have aspirations but they are low, and might be very slow getting there. They need a competent instructor for their level.

On the other hand there are adult ammies who say they want to “go up the levels” but don’t do their homework. Sometimes that’s because the advice they are given in lessons feels scary or unpleasant to do alone, especially if they are in a crank and spur program where the horse gets angry when ridden “correctly.” These I think are probably more frustrating to a coach because the clients will talk big but not follow through with their homework. But again these aren’t exactly even low or no aspiration clients. They just aren’t honest with themselves.

IME these clients are an ideal match for the trainer who also talks big but can’t really get results. Both sides will talk big and blow smoke but neither side really expects progress after a certain point. At a certain point the rider moves to a new trainer or starts over from zero with a “better” horse or stops riding altogether.

[Lucassb]

@Scribbler

(SNIP)

On the other hand there are adult ammies who say they want to “go up the levels” but don’t do their homework. Sometimes that’s because the advice they are given in lessons feels scary or unpleasant to do alone, especially if they are in a crank and spur program where the horse gets angry when ridden “correctly.” These I think are probably more frustrating to a coach because the clients will talk big but not follow through with their homework. But again these aren’t exactly even low or no aspiration clients. They just aren’t honest with themselves.

IME these clients are an ideal match for the trainer who also talks big but can’t really get results. Both sides will talk big and blow smoke but neither side really expects progress after a certain point. At a certain point the rider moves to a new trainer or starts over from zero with a “better” horse or stops riding altogether.

I think this is a common scenario but don’t agree that the problem with this situation is that the rider is “not being honest.”

The problem described is that the trainer has not brought the horse and rider along in a way that follows the training scale, the foundations of which are rhythm and relaxation, to preserve the harmony that also creates a pleasant ride.

Proper training should not make the horse angry, and an effective, progressive approach to training shouldn’t mean the rider has to be concerned for their safety when riding on their own or practicing between lessons. Sure, there may be those moments where the horse offers a bigger response or more expression than the rider expects and there may be that moment of YIKES that was a big depart or wow those changes feel like riding a porpoise, I better get my amateur butt to the gym. But scary/unpleasant on a regular basis? Um, no. That is not productive nor required in order to go up the levels IME.

[netg]

@Heinz 57

But, all this discussion is with the rider who wants to advance in mind. I think there is also a place for those trainers who don’t mind riders who want to come and work on the same thing week after week, for years, and just enjoy riding in their comfort zone.

This is a different type of rider for sure. There is NOTHING wrong with a trainer who isn’t looking to progress. A trainer who works as hard as motivated riders may not find riders with no desire to get beyond maintaining the status quo. Trainers who keep their riders safe and enjoying themselves may be as valuable and as hard to find. I feel like the article was implying riders who want to progress, but maybe not…

The discussion about position- so important. I have had two lessons I see as the most valuable lessons of my life. One was my first ride with Jeremy (after that symposium referenced above - I saw him there, and his discussion of tension - and knew he could help me with tension in my TB. Luckily I was the last ride of the day, because we went on for an hour and a half until my horse released his tension. Jeremy taught me more in what to look for and techniques to use to eliminate tension in that ride than I have ever learned in a single ride. I came out and told him straight off the bat that my horse would get tense and explosive away from home, and I wanted to learn to work with that, and he embraced the challenge. It was entirely focused on my horse and feeling and paying attention to my horse because at the time those tools were what I needed. My other lesson was my first with my now trainer when I took my horse to him and was taking a lesson on another horse. I had told him that I knew I blocked my horse which added to his tension, and I needed to learn not to. I knew I shouldn’t sit on the front of my pelvis but I couldn’t seem to get my back flat. Soon after the start of my ride he gave me the best advice ever: slouch. I had the equitation class very squared shoulders, and with my build that locked my back too arched so I could not achieve a neutral seat. “Slouch” put me in an upright but not locked position. Life changing. THAT is how "equitation " in dressage matters, and is what those encouraging it meant.

One thing I look for in trainers is if the people who ride with them improve. Riders have to be committed in addition to having the resources and time, so of course some clients won’t progress and I don’t hold that against a trainer. But if no one improves, that tells me there’s a trainer problem. I can think of 5 local trainers who have students whose horses started at unstarted and made it to FEI without really trying, so we have options here. We also have quite a few dressage riders with little to no interest in showing. I don’t know how all those trainers teach, but they are getting progress so something is working for their clients.

[angelssix]

An older ammie with confidence issues, maybe some health limitations, and a safe but greenish off breed horse wants to eventually school and show first level but maybe also wants global skills to feel safe on easy trail rides. That person might take a long time to be comfortable cantering or pushing up into a true working trot, even. But they also need the reassurance of regular lessons. They have aspirations but they are low, and might be very slow getting there. They need a competent instructor for their level.

I couldn’t have said it better. I fall firmly into this camp. I don’t think there is anything wrong with people who just are not that into competing. I enjoy learning for learning’s sake, not because I have something to prove. I want to do better for my horse and myself, nobody else.

[Scribbler]

@Lucassb

I think this is a common scenario but don’t agree that the problem with this situation is that the rider is “not being honest.”

The problem described is that the trainer has not brought the horse and rider along in a way that follows the training scale, the foundations of which are rhythm and relaxation, to preserve the harmony that also creates a pleasant ride.

Proper training should not make the horse angry, and an effective, progressive approach to training shouldn’t mean the rider has to be concerned for their safety when riding on their own or practicing between lessons. Sure, there may be those moments where the horse offers a bigger response or more expression than the rider expects and there may be that moment of YIKES that was a big depart or wow those changes feel like riding a porpoise, I better get my amateur butt to the gym. But scary/unpleasant on a regular basis? Um, no. That is not productive nor required in order to go up the levels IME.

I agree with you on all of this.

My comments were more mulling over the phenomenon I’ve watched over the years of riders that talk big but aren’t very self motivated, .hooking up with trainers that talk big but aren’t very effective.

The riders who are self motivated eventually realize the trainer is ineffective or worse, and go to another barn (loudly saying first trainer ruined their horse). The riders who are not self motivated stick around with the ineffective trainer longer.

My observation is that when two people who run on hot air and bullshit meet up, they have a harder time seeing through each other. Or may not even want to, if they mutually support each other’s hot air.

I’ve been lucky to have only had good coaches since I returned to riding. But I’ve been in a big barn with multiple part time coaches and no overall training program and it has been very very interesting watching it play out over and over with certain coaches.

[Graymaresrule]

@angelssix

I couldn’t have said it better. I fall firmly into this camp. I don’t think there is anything wrong with people who just are not that into competing. I enjoy learning for learning’s sake, not because I have something to prove. I want to do better for my horse and myself, nobody else.

Every time I think of competing I add up the cost. Rosemont is 15 min down the road, but Yikes the cost. I need a cheaper goal. That’s just not worth it to me.

[Annie_Burton]

@soloudinhere

This doesn’t make any sense. Dressage is 100% about the horse. It is about training and gymnasticizing the horse’s body to the best of its ability. Focusing on the rider and perfecting the height of your post and the perfect position of your hands does nothing to teach you how the horse should feel and how to develop the timing/feel that your particular horse needs.

People will argue me on this point, but “focusing on position” is a waste of time because it takes you away from the hard stuff and allows you to waste time working on the easy stuff.

Dressage is about the horse and rider. There is no dressage without the basic skills to ride properly.

For fifteen years I rode and competed in Germany and for fifteen years in the USA and I’m at a point of being able to note the differences between the two: a beginning adult rider in Germany is a beginner like a kid, placed in a basic schooling program with three to ten horses in the arena, learning to SIT and RIDE walk, trot, canter, in the “Abteilung.” A beginning adult rider in the US, on the other hand, especially with money, is never placed in the any rigorous riding program, never learns to ride a wide range of school horses, rarely learns to really sit and ride properly, and is then prematurely encouraged to buy expensive horses that he or she will not be able to ride properly and confidently.

Having worked in topnotch US competition barns I’ve seen dozens of such riders. 100K horses and no skills to ride them. There is an absence of a “riding school culture” and no basic, nationally regulated rider training, and without those the later, systematic training of horses simply cannot happen by riders who start riding too late in life as wealthy private clients to trainers — who end up competing these horses for their clients. The clients then become de-facto “sponsors” of those trainers on the horses they own and no longer really ride.

So, I would respectfully disagree that “focusing on position is a waste of time because it takes you away from the hard stuff.” = not true at all. Dressage of the horse is hard, but it is impossible without lifelong rider training at its core. Focusing on the rider’s skills is crucial. Learning to ride is not glamorous, and no money in the world will create a shortcut around it.

[Scribbler]

@Annie Burton

Dressage is about the horse and rider. There is no dressage without the basic skills to ride properly.

For fifteen years I rode and competed in Germany and for fifteen years in the USA and I’d like to point out the differences between the two: a beginning adult rider in Germany is a beginner like a kid, placed in a basic schooling program with three to ten horses in the arena, learning to SIT and RIDE walk, trot, canter, in the “Abteilung.” A beginning adult rider in the US, on the other hand, especially with money, is never placed in the any rigorous riding program, never learns to sit and ride properly, and is then prematurely encouraged to buy expensive horses that he or she will not be able to ride properly and confidently.

Having worked in topnotch US competition barns I’ve seen dozens of such riders. 100K horses and no skills to ride them. There is an absence of a “riding school culture” and no basic, nationally regulated rider training, and without those the later, systematic training of horses simply cannot happen by riders who start riding too late in life as wealthy private clients to trainers — who end up competing these horses for their clients.

So, I would respectfully disagree that “focusing on position is a waste of time because it takes you away from the hard stuff.” = not true at all. Dressage of the horse is hard, but it is impossible without rider training at its core. Focusing on the rider’s skills is crucial. Learning to ride is not glamorous, and no money in the world will create a shortcut around it.

I would agree.

I have watched adult beginner or low skill returning riders start off in dressage lessons that actually really undermine their overall riding.

You need at minimum an independent seat to usefully influence how a horse carries himself.

I have watched adult beginners or re-riders go into dressage lessons where they are told to ride on strong contact and get the horse “round” before they themselves are in balance. The result is that they learn to use the reins for balance and get very handsy. They can also develop a fear of riding on loose rein.

I watched a good friend rerider struggle with this over a course of several years. The first times I saw her on a horse she was lax but relaxed, had kept alot of her laissez-faire teenage bareback ways.

She went out to a couple of months of dressage lessons on a horse that was bit much for her, then bought a broke but green horse for trail riding. I was surprised that her riding skills had globally deteriorated. She was more anxious, and she was afraid to ride on a loose rein, and over the course of several months things went sideways with the new horse too. It has taken a long time for them to work through that.

I honestly think she would have been better served by not doing the dressage lessons at all at that early stage because she learned to balance on the reins and become afraid of the horse.

I’ve seen similar happen to folks I’m not as close to, so it’s not a once off thing

”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹

[merrygoround]

Scribbler, I think you are blaming the lesson . It is not the lessons, it is the quality of the lessons.

I have worked with a wide range of instructors, and with so many, I find that a lot of things are in their mind, a given. They expect you to already know the quality of feel in maintaining contact, They tell you the horse is not bent properly, but they do not tell you how you need to move to correct the bend. Either they don’t know , or can’t explain how the rider must use various body parts to achieve a goal.

And yes, I’ve been told the horse is wonderful, I’m the problem. :rolleyes: And then been told why and how the horse finds the
movement difficult, or that degree of roundness impossible, by an entirely more educated instructor. :lol:

And I find Jeremy entirely correct that some instructors far prefer riders who show, on expensive horses in order to enhance their reputation.

But some of us just like to see riders progress from not surviving Intro to scoring well, And then moving up, but not moving up before then.

[Scribbler]

@merrygoround

Scribbler, I think you are blaming the lesson . It is not the lessons, it is the quality of the lessons.

I have worked with a wide range of instructors, and with so many, I find that a lot of things are in their mind, a given. They expect you to already know the quality of feel in maintaining contact, They tell you the horse is not bent properly, but they do not tell you how you need to move to correct the bend. Either they don’t know , or can’t explain how the rider must use various body parts to achieve a goal.

And yes, I’ve been told the horse is wonderful, I’m the problem. :rolleyes: And then been told why and how the horse finds the
movement difficult, or that degree of roundness impossible, by an entirely more educated instructor. :lol:

And I find Jeremy entirely correct that some instructors far prefer riders who show, on expensive horses in order to enhance their reputation.

But some of us just like to see riders progress from not surviving Intro to scoring well, And then moving up, but not moving up before then.

Well, yes, I meant the quality of lessons.

A good dressage program would do longe work and other things to get the rider balanced.

[mvp]

@Annie Burton

Dressage is about the horse and rider. There is no dressage without the basic skills to ride properly.

For fifteen years I rode and competed in Germany and for fifteen years in the USA and I’m at a point of being able to note the differences between the two: a beginning adult rider in Germany is a beginner like a kid, placed in a basic schooling program with three to ten horses in the arena, learning to SIT and RIDE walk, trot, canter, in the “Abteilung.” A beginning adult rider in the US, on the other hand, especially with money, is never placed in the any rigorous riding program, never learns to ride a wide range of school horses, rarely learns to really sit and ride properly, and is then prematurely encouraged to buy expensive horses that he or she will not be able to ride properly and confidently.

Having worked in topnotch US competition barns I’ve seen dozens of such riders. 100K horses and no skills to ride them. There is an absence of a “riding school culture” and no basic, nationally regulated rider training, and without those the later, systematic training of horses simply cannot happen by riders who start riding too late in life as wealthy private clients to trainers — who end up competing these horses for their clients. The clients then become de-facto “sponsors” of those trainers on the horses they own and no longer really ride.

So, I would respectfully disagree that “focusing on position is a waste of time because it takes you away from the hard stuff.” = not true at all. Dressage of the horse is hard, but it is impossible without lifelong rider training at its core. Focusing on the rider’s skills is crucial. Learning to ride is not glamorous, and no money in the world will create a shortcut around it.

Thank you for weighing in on how riding is taught in Germany.

I grew up in the “riding school culture” of the H/J world when i was a poor, horse-crazy kid. I hadn’t considered just what that had taught me before until now. It did teach me the value of equitation. After all, if I rode a different schoolie each week, but had the same instructor, equitation was the alpha and omega of those lessons. That said, I can’t recall a lesson that was not about “riding” writ large. I was told how to ride effectively and tactfully On The Given Horse I Was On. It might take something different to keep the lazy one coming to the jumps versus the hotter one who would throw his head up if you didn’t figure out how to rate him but also keep your aids soft and judicious. I was yelled at about my straightness, my geometry, my feel on a horse. I was told how much easier it would be to sit on a horse who had raised up his back, and then taught how to do that (later).

I hope you can see that of course there was a great deal of riding and feel to “equitation,” even though equitation was the primary product being given to the kid who didn’t own a horse and might not be back after her birthday present of 10 lessons was up.

But I also learned how to be teachable on horseback. I also learned that my riding was going to be a significant part of how the horse went. Because I didn’t have my own horse to “untrain my way,” I didn’t work on the same problems week after week. There wasn’t a rut there to fall into.

ETA: Why, then, is “teaching their clients to ride” such a burden for these pros? It seems to me that with a discipline whose client base is not the most teachable equitation rider, and without very many opportunities to show in equitation classes at shows, pros have nowhere to direct their clients’ attention.

If you were a H/J pro, you’d have equitation divisions for every age and level of client you had! In fact, the equitation divisions were a great, great place for your clients who tried hard and wanted to show/be part of your barn, but who could not afford a horse good enough to be competitive in the hunter ring. You and they still had legit goals to work toward and, boy-howdy, you showed up and gave them attentive, on-point lessons.

[fordtraktor]

I am rather new to dressage, though certainly not flatwork, and as a graduate of the school of focusing on equitation mvp describes, find it hard to imagine how you could ask a horse for the things dressage asks without an independent seat, independent use of the aids, and educated hands.

One has to feel sorry for a dressage horse whose rider possesses none of those attributes! It must be confusing and painful for the horse.

[angelssix]

@Graymaresrule

Every time I think of competing I add up the cost. Rosemont is 15 min down the road, but Yikes the cost. I need a cheaper goal. That’s just not worth it to me.

Yes, then there is this. It gets super expensive. Sticking to schooling shows is what most do to keep costs down. But it still adds up more than you realize.

[Core6430]

Wow. That did not go where I thought it was going. Quite impressed with Jeremy’s insight.

“using them [AA’s] as a means to an end”

This is my frustration with the sport. The USDF nickle and dimes us, but provides little of real substance to help us (unless we’re rich and can give them more money through eated shows or championships).

The USEF is like having some theoretical distant couson that asks for money every year, but you never see them, and they never talk to you again after getting their money.

The USDF Adult Ammy clinics they used to hold were 50% Professional riders, so all the Ammys from a Region had to compete for 4 slots. And then the majority of the clinic seemed focused on the Pros. It seemed so hypocritical to name it “Adult Ammy Clinic” and then make AA’s a secondary aspect of it.

Not to mention, the cost for it was high to not only attend, but to Audit. I had to pay to audit partly in change (this was after driving an hour, one way, to attend).

Add in that the USDF now expects GMO schooling show venues (each venue) to pay them to be part of the year end schooling show awards. 🙄 We already pay them a portion of our GMO fees to be Group Members with little to no benefit. Now they want to jack up the costs of schooling shows so we can have year end awards. Something my state was able to provide us without charging individual venues an additional cost.

The trainers in my area want rich clients to show. It is pushed and pushed hard. Buy the big gaits and expensive horse and hit every rated show. Because this makes the trainer look good.

Not all Trainers, but enough that I’ve had to put a screening process in place so that I I don’t get pressured to over extend my budget to make a trainer look good.

I DO think a clinic or two with a BNT can really help a decent rider learn where her trainers education stops, or is lacking. I’ve also had clinics where my horse and I improved drastically in 1 or 2 rides, by fixing the holes my trainer didn’t see.

However, I’ve spent gobs of wasted money on “Professional Clinicians” that had absolutely nothing to teach me. I can’t decide if it was because they didn’t know how to train the average horse, or if they didn’t care if an AA improved, or if they were worried they’d not get invited back if they didn’t pander to the AA ego.

Ultimately, no, the dressage community as a whole doesnt give two craps about AA’s education. It’s all about how they can use the AA to either get a good horse to ride, or use them to attend shows and clinics (ride the AAs horse in them), or use them to get better connected/wealthier clients. It’s rarely about the education of the average AA on the average horse.

And also, its incredibly difficult to be taken seriously as an AA (not laughed out of the room) withoit that Bronze medal.

[BigMama1]

@netg

This is a different type of rider for sure. There is NOTHING wrong with a trainer who isn’t looking to progress. A trainer who works as hard as motivated riders may not find riders with no desire to get beyond maintaining the status quo. Trainers who keep their riders safe and enjoying themselves may be as valuable and as hard to find. I feel like the article was implying riders who want to progress, but maybe not…

The discussion about position- so important. I have had two lessons I see as the most valuable lessons of my life. One was my first ride with Jeremy (after that symposium referenced above - I saw him there, and his discussion of tension - and knew he could help me with tension in my TB. Luckily I was the last ride of the day, because we went on for an hour and a half until my horse released his tension. Jeremy taught me more in what to look for and techniques to use to eliminate tension in that ride than I have ever learned in a single ride. I came out and told him straight off the bat that my horse would get tense and explosive away from home, and I wanted to learn to work with that, and he embraced the challenge. It was entirely focused on my horse and feeling and paying attention to my horse because at the time those tools were what I needed. My other lesson was my first with my now trainer when I took my horse to him and was taking a lesson on another horse. I had told him that I knew I blocked my horse which added to his tension, and I needed to learn not to. I knew I shouldn’t sit on the front of my pelvis but I couldn’t seem to get my back flat. Soon after the start of my ride he gave me the best advice ever: slouch. I had the equitation class very squared shoulders, and with my build that locked my back too arched so I could not achieve a neutral seat. “Slouch” put me in an upright but not locked position. Life changing. THAT is how "equitation " in dressage matters, and is what those encouraging it meant.

One thing I look for in trainers is if the people who ride with them improve. Riders have to be committed in addition to having the resources and time, so of course some clients won’t progress and I don’t hold that against a trainer. But if no one improves, that tells me there’s a trainer problem. I can think of 5 local trainers who have students whose horses started at unstarted and made it to FEI without really trying, so we have options here. We also have quite a few dressage riders with little to no interest in showing. I don’t know how all those trainers teach, but they are getting progress so something is working for their clients.

I agree about looking at trainers’ clients’ results - that’s how I found my trainer. I have had many coaches over the years, and have ridden with more than one where nobody in the barn ever progressed beyond First Level.

Funnily enough I first met my current trainer at a Jeremy Steinberg clinic 4 years ago. She stood out to me because she rode a draft cross at GP, and one of her clients rode a draft cross at Third (that pair is now successful at I1 and still moving up).

I was impressed at how well her amateur clients rode and how consistently well their horses went in the clinic, so kept an eye on her program over the next few years. Her clients - whether they show or not - consistently move up the levels. Her clients’ horses - whether they show or not - consistently move up the levels. Most importantly to me, these horses moving up consistently year after year include imported warmbloods, OTTBs, draft crosses, former hunter ponies, Lusitanos, PREs and more.

Showing is not a big goal or priority for me. Trainer knows that and doesn’t care. Moving up through the levels and learning to ride each level and movement well is the goal and she is every bit as demanding and encouraging of me to do that as she would be if I were out there representing her program in the show ring.

Where she and Jeremy align is that she is very honest with her clients and does not sugar coat things to feed our egos. She will flat out tell a student that they can’t be riding well enough to show if they only ride twice a week. She will say that someone needs to improve their fitness, or core strength or stamina to be able to ride at the desired level. She would be very blunt if I expressed a desire to show my PSG schoolmaster at PSG, because I don’t yet have the skills to ride her successfully at Third Level. It’s not being discouraging; it’s being honest.

[Scribbler]

@BigMama1

I agree about looking at trainers’ clients’ results - that’s how I found my trainer. I have had many coaches over the years, and have ridden with more than one where nobody in the barn ever progressed beyond First Level.

Funnily enough I first met my current trainer at a Jeremy Steinberg clinic 4 years ago. She stood out to me because she rode a draft cross at GP, and one of her clients rode a draft cross at Third (that pair is now successful at I1 and still moving up).

I was impressed at how well her amateur clients rode and how consistently well their horses went in the clinic, so kept an eye on her program over the next few years. Her clients - whether they show or not - consistently move up the levels. Her clients’ horses - whether they show or not - consistently move up the levels. Most importantly to me, these horses moving up consistently year after year include imported warmbloods, OTTBs, draft crosses, former hunter ponies, Lusitanos, PREs and more.

Showing is not a big goal or priority for me. Trainer knows that and doesn’t care. Moving up through the levels and learning to ride each level and movement well is the goal and she is every bit as demanding and encouraging of me to do that as she would be if I were out there representing her program in the show ring.

Where she and Jeremy align is that she is very honest with her clients and does not sugar coat things to feed our egos. She will flat out tell a student that they can’t be riding well enough to show if they only ride twice a week. She will say that someone needs to improve their fitness, or core strength or stamina to be able to ride at the desired level. She would be very blunt if I expressed a desire to show my PSG schoolmaster at PSG, because I don’t yet have the skills to ride her successfully at Third Level. It’s not being discouraging; it’s being honest.

Ah.

But in order to look at a trainer’s clients or indeed the trainer themselves, and see they ride well, you need to already have an eye that can evaluate what good riding and good movement in a horse look like, even if you aren’t there yet yourself. Having an eye for what’s correct is already a huge step in being a self motivated student.

Unfortunately it can be hard to develop that eye from inside a low quality program.

[pluvinel]

@Scribbler

Ah.

But in order to look at a trainer’s clients or indeed the trainer themselves, and see they ride well, you need to already have an eye that can evaluate what good riding and good movement in a horse look like, even if you aren’t there yet yourself. Having an eye for what’s correct is already a huge step in being a self motivated student.

Unfortunately it can be hard to develop that eye from inside a low quality program.

Hmmmm… I would say one can find a trainer by looking at how they ride and how their horses go…and then deciding if that is how YOU want to ride and/or how you want your horses to go.

I found (one) of my trainers when I went to an exhibition at her farm…just a fortuitous event. My impression was, “Wow, I have never seen riding like this. That is how I want to ride.” And the rest is history.

I have known her for 25 years. She doesn’t show now and is known only thru “word of mouth.” She is the best stallion handler I know, and used to keep a barn of 8 stallions as her show horses.

I am in an area where I can easily visit and see Olympic level riders, trainers, etc. I have been able to see the horses that have come from their program…and they have mouths hard as rocks.

I have been going to Dressage at Devon, (and scribed at GP) since the mid-1980’s…and have seen the changes in upper level riding…to the negative direction in my opinion.

About 20 years ago, I was at a clinic with a Cadre Noir rider. At first, yes, he thought I was an “AA” (in the pejorative sense). I have now been his long-time student as he comes to the US to a couple of private barns several times a year.

Over time, he saw the work I did with a 4 year old stallion. Recently I made some comment like “I am only an amateur”…" He stopped and corrected me and said “You are not an amateur.”

So…over time, this instructor recognized that I was a serious student and has always treated me in a very professional way, with respect, and answering all my “theory” questions with the seriousness and thoughtfulness of a “true teacher.”

Another former Cadre Noir instructor I found +20 years ago at a “back yard” clinic that I found thru the old Horse of Delaware Valley paper and that I attended as an auditor, held in a two-bit barn.

So…good teachers are out there. You just need to look in “non-traditional” places for them.

[quietann]

I walked away from dressage, eventually… though I’m still boarding at a dressage barn, for the quality of care. I don’t miss it much.

I was in the odd position of being a crap rider with a really fancy, talented horse, who could be difficult. Not a WB, but a little Morgan mare who carries herself like a big horse. I went through a few trainers, including a couple that really wanted to take her out of my incompetent hands. (Hint: when a trainer says, “this could have been an FEI horse, in better hands,” leave. Immediately.) I did a couple of lessons a week, most of the time, but spent a lot of my non lesson days trail riding because honestly, that was much more satisfying. Getting an opinionated and somewhat herdbound, hot mare to go out on the trails on her own and like it was more of an accomplishment than anything I did in dressage. I have friends with huge dressage talent who never leave the arena - and often never leave the indoor arena, even if there’s a good outdoor arena available.

I see a lot of AAs pursue dressage unhappily, and I wish that the old fashioned “balanced seat” riding I first learned, in group lessons, in all sorts of settings, was more available than it is now. So many of us end up in dressage because we can’t jump, for various reasons. And it really isn’t the best place for many of us. My horse is nearing retirement - she no longer is that comfortable going out alone - and I just may try to find such a program before I buy another horse.

[Core6430]

@pluvinel

Over time, he saw the work I did with a 4 year old stallion. Recently I made some comment like “I am only an amateur”…" He stopped and corrected me and said “You are not an amateur.”

I HATE this belief that all AAs are incompetent bags o’ a$$ riders.

This view is a big reason why AAs aren’t taken seriously in dressage. Why we’re used and discarded. We’re seen as crappy, incompent, wannabes.

And here we are, fighting to be seen by the big wigs as “not an Ammy” so we can be taken seriously.

It perpetuates the issue.

ETA: You are an ammy if you dont accept monetary payment for riding/training horses, or until you declare yourself a professional. It’s just a category USEF created. You make it mean crappy rider or not.

[pluvinel]

@Core6430

… You make it mean crappy rider or not.

I assume this “you” was intended at me…since you quoted me.

Yes, I showed up at a clinic with a barely broke 4 year old stallion…which is why I was there, to to learn. The clinician asked, "Who is going to ride this horse?’ When I said “me”… I could tell the clinician wasn’t too enthused.

Over the span of years, this clinician saw the work I did with the stallion and two other yearlings I bought and broke. The current horse is now 6 years old and doing 2nd-3rd level. I believe his respect for my work grew over the years as he got to know me and saw what I did with young horses.

I also “teach” professionals…eg., people who get paid to give lessons. They have used my horses with their students. So I would rate my skills on par with some of the local “pros.” When I compete I compete in the Open classes…but I still don’t take money for any advice I give.

I agree with you that the current usage of the term “Adult Amateur” is typically applied in a pejorative sense to an individual’s riding skills. This is opposed to what the definition of the word “amateur” means…eg., a person who does something for enjoyment, not money,