Jill Burnell Gray Fox Farms - FACTS THREAD

[QUOTE=VLF Sporthorses;7593226]
It occurred to me that before accusing someone of being shady that perhaps a simple phone call could have rectified this. I understand your worry of looking like you might support Jill Burnell but I believe this picture was chosen to attest to the quality of the offspring that this beautiful stallion produces. So be flattered!
Redwine is receiving professional care by people who have produced and raised quality horses for many years and I understand that the care he is receiving is superb. Maybe a more positive outlook would help in coming up with a solution for the future of this wonderful man.[/QUOTE]

My first quote! READ PEOPLE

[QUOTE=VLF Sporthorses;7593351]
Really inca! I was not suggesting that it was a free for all. Maybe you can read my post again. I suggested that a simple call to the farm would have resolved the situation. I don’t know all the details but perhaps it was a misunderstanding. Unless you know something I don’t know? Until then… let’s take a deep breath and shake hands.[/QUOTE]

Another Post!! READ PEOPLE

[QUOTE=VLF Sporthorses;7595788]
INCA I get that she’s upset, I speak english therefore I understand everyones arguments. I’m just saying that the issue has been discussed, the picture removed so call it a day. It’s obvious that you all have strong feelings where Jill Burnell is concerned, I have my own as well! All I can tell you is that the stallion is living the life, I have seen proof. I have one baby on the ground by Redwine…(thanks to Ashland Farm honouring by breeding contracts) and another to arrive soon. I am so pleased with the first colt that I will be breeding back for 2015. You argue…where is the money going, well horses cost money especially keeping a stallion so let’s look there first. If you are worried about Jill Burnell benefitting from the profits and I don’t believe she is, consider your legal system. It is your system that granted her the right to continue owning horses and would it be your wish for these horses to be left hungry. She will need some way of feeding these animals![/QUOTE]

READ PEOPLE

Lynnwood, thank you. Yes, that was in the link I posted. It works on my computer, not sure what I did wrong.

VLF, a little outside perspective: Laurierace et al aren’t manipulating this forum or even attempting to. However you do seem to be trying to sway all others to your opinion and then resorting to subtle and not so subtle accusations of defamation.
FWIW, your example of defamation does not meet Canadian nor American legal standards. Daventry has the words “seems to be” and as such is her opinion of what you may be seen as attempting to do. There isn’t any actual statement.
Any harm or loss of reputation or remuneration in your business would most likely happen due to your own postings as opposed to anything anyone else has posted on here.

Also, I had been reading this and only posted the (nonworking apparently) link in an attempt to show that you were NOT defending Ms. Burnell despite the incomprehensible posts you were making. It was supposed to have been in support of your hard-to-understand position.

Your subsequent posts only show that any help is not welcome nor is it any actual help.

MistyBlue I did appreciate your post. This all began when I simply suggested that calling to have the picture of an offspring removed would be a good idea…that is all. It has nothing to do with this wild goose chase that this forum has turned into. Frankly, I’m not sure what opinion you feel I’m trying to sway people to…the one where I suggested to be a reasonable person and just make a call and have the picture of the offspring removed instead of going on a public forum and calling someone names?

[QUOTE=VLF Sporthorses;7596773]
MistyBlue I did appreciate your post. This all began when I simply suggested that calling to have the picture of an offspring removed would be a good idea…that is all. It has nothing to do with this wild goose chase that this forum has turned into. Frankly, I’m not sure what opinion you feel I’m trying to sway people to…the one where I suggested to be a reasonable person and just make a call and have the picture of the offspring removed instead of going on a public forum and calling someone names?[/QUOTE]

I don’t know the fact you think it is the photo owner that should be policing their property rather than someone knowing the law is rather ridiculous. Just because you didn’t know it was illegal doesn’t mean you can do it. What your saying is well, like telling someone whose house was broken into they should be happy with it because it means their stuff was high quality .

Also ignoring the fact that Jill Burnell is profiting off the stallion while he is in Canada, and choosing to continue a relationship with her, inadvertently, frankly leaves a whole lot to be desired. The only way that stallion ever leaves her hands, is if he is the demand to use him dries up. That means no one buys his semen, and no one buys his foals.

I don’t do business with people who can’t even be bothered with basic animal husbandry. I don’t do business with crooks or known liars. I really really really hesitate to do business with people that associate with any of them.

Yep that’s what I said, I believe that photo owners should have to police there own property. It’s right there in black and white. Wrong! I said after the fact unfortunately, maybe you can just ask them to take it down. Are you obtuse. Please don’t put words in my mouth. You angry ladies might almost get something done if you directed you aggression towards JB. My horses, are fat, vaccinated and have beautiful feet. They have shelter and blankets and fresh water at all times. I don’t abuse or condone abuse. [edit] It’s been nice but I will not be part of this, you have obviously made up your mind. Have a nice day ladies!

Posted by VLF Sporthorses:

It occurred to me that before accusing someone of being shady that perhaps a simple phone call could have rectified this. I understand your worry of looking like you might support Jill Burnell but I believe this picture was chosen to attest to the quality of the offspring that this beautiful stallion produces. So be flattered!
Redwine is receiving professional care by people who have produced and raised quality horses for many years and I understand that the care he is receiving is superb. Maybe a more positive outlook would help in coming up with a solution for the future of this wonderful man.

VLF Sporthorses, anytime that someone is using someone else’s photograph without permission they are in violation of copyright laws. Those would be Federal copyright laws.

That kind of behavior reeks of a lack of professionalism, at the very least, and it is a violation of the law.

Laurierace should never have had to call these people in the first place.

Your words not mine were that those who had their photos stolen should be flattered. Do you tell that to other victims of theft? Hey US steel, be flattered they stole your intellectual property. Hey victim of theft be flattered they picked your house. Hey car theft victim, your car was exactly what they needed they couldn’t help themselves to it. You should be so flattered.

I’m glad you can take care of your horses, but by breeding back this year you are putting money in the the Burnells pocket, you should be so Proud.

Back on track. I can only hope that for Jill to get romantic star back she has to pay back all bills incurred for all horses. I doubt she will be ponying up the money spent, for an older stallion, and old open broodmares.

I know for a fact and from good sources that Jill Burnell is NOT benefiting financially from the breedings Redwine has earned for Ashland not a single penny and that there was NO financail gain made by leasing him out. I do know that Ashland was looking to buy a stallion before this whole ordeal started so when the opportunity to get this great stallion became availalble they acted. Why is that a bad thing? Would you have preferred that he suffer, that he become unavailable to all those stung by Burnell lack of ethical buisness practices? I also know that outstanding board had to be covered by Ashland along with many other hoops that had to be jumped through in order to get Redwine up to Canada in order to make him available again to those who had breedings to him. I do know that there was hopes that Jill would NOT be able to own horses again, hopefully making it more feasible for them to buy Redwine and keep him safe and keep his quailty breeding available. Unfortunately that was a gamble that did not pan out.

I DO understand the other issues with the photo and how that can be a sting especially when Laurie was so stung by Jill in the first place, but it looks as though they tried to rectify that issue, and I just can’t understand why that should be held against a person for so long, or against VLF who was misinformed.

Seriously people when we know who the criminal is why are you trying to drag so many others into it?? I do not believe VLF is the criminal, nor is she trying to sway anyone, looks as though she is just trying to defend herself. If she was wrong about her statement to the photo then so be it, why does it have to turn into something else entireley that is completely False.

As for Ashland, IMHO I do not feel like they are the criminal either. I do agree they are guilty of not being transparent enough when it comes to this matter, however when they are working hard to try to give Redwine a perment home it’s hard to be completely transparent when there is still so much that has to be settled. There are times in business when you have to stay quiet in order to get things finalized.

Whether we like it or not Jill does OWN redwine, and I think it’s safe to say that we would all like it if he didn’t go back there. However no one is going to just give up on a horse like Redwine for nothing, that is just the reality, why should Ashland be pulled through the mud because they are they ones trying to help him. Again why are we chastising a good farm that does right by their horses and their clients, for trying to keep this stallion that MANY people love and have used. People your not happy that she gets her horses, but your not happy when someone is trying to keep her from having them. I just don’t get it. Maybe things could have been handled better at the time, but we can’t change the past all we can do is look to the future and hope that the right thing will be done.

[QUOTE=andyvee;7596873]
I know for a fact and from good sources that Jill Burnell is NOT benefiting financially from the breedings Redwine has earned for Ashland not a single penny and that there was NO financail gain made by leasing him out. I do know that Ashland was looking to buy a stallion before this whole ordeal started so when the opportunity to get this great stallion became availalble they acted. Why is that a bad thing? Would you have preferred that he suffer, that he become unavailable to all those stung by Burnell lack of ethical buisness practices? I also know that outstanding board had to be covered by Ashland along with many other hoops that had to be jumped through in order to get Redwine up to Canada in order to make him available again to those who had breedings to him. I do know that there was hopes that Jill would NOT be able to own horses again, hopefully making it more feasible for them to buy Redwine and keep him safe and keep his quailty breeding available. Unfortunately that was a gamble that did not pan out.

I DO understand the other issues with the photo and how that can be a sting especially when Laurie was so stung by Jill in the first place, but it looks as though they tried to rectify that issue, and I just can’t understand why that should be held against a person for so long, or against VLF who was misinformed.

Seriously people when we know who the criminal is why are you trying to drag so many others into it?? I do not believe VLF is the criminal, nor is she trying to sway anyone, looks as though she is just trying to defend herself. If she was wrong about her statement to the photo then so be it, why does it have to turn into something else entireley that is completely False.

As for Ashland, IMHO I do not feel like they are the criminal either. I do agree they are guilty of not being transparent enough when it comes to this matter, however when they are working hard to try to give Redwine a perment home it’s hard to be completely transparent when there is still so much that has to be settled. There are times in business when you have to stay quiet in order to get things finalized.

Whether we like it or not Jill does OWN redwine, and I think it’s safe to say that we would all like it if he didn’t go back there. However no one is going to just give up on a horse like Redwine for nothing, that is just the reality, why should Ashland be pulled through the mud because they are they ones trying to help him. Again why are we chastising a good farm that does right by their horses and their clients, for trying to keep this stallion that MANY people love and have used. People your not happy that she gets her horses, but your not happy when someone is trying to keep her from having them. I just don’t get it. Maybe things could have been handled better at the time, but we can’t change the past all we can do is look to the future and hope that the right thing will be done.[/QUOTE]

What do you think Jill got out of leasing redwine, some warm fuzzy feelings. Either they paid her or they paid off her debts. She is benefiting. If it’s not monetarily it could be as simple as hiding an asset. And each and every additional breeding he gets increased his value. Each and every offspring he has that sells for x amount of dollars keeps his value up.

Sorry there is no horse, worth dragging your reputation through the mud for. There are some people you don’t have anything to do with. After the condition of her house and bad business came to light Jill was one of them.

And sorry, I don’t sympathize with Ashland. They don’t get a pat on the back. And a job well done and a golden star. Had they let Jill sink, it is very likely she’d be out of the business, and they probably could have acquired redwine for peanuts.

[QUOTE=andyvee;7596873]
I know for a fact and from good sources that Jill Burnell is NOT benefiting financially from the breedings Redwine has earned for Ashland not a single penny and that there was NO financail gain made by leasing him out. I do know that Ashland was looking to buy a stallion before this whole ordeal started so when the opportunity to get this great stallion became availalble they acted. Why is that a bad thing? Would you have preferred that he suffer, that he become unavailable to all those stung by Burnell lack of ethical buisness practices? I also know that outstanding board had to be covered by Ashland along with many other hoops that had to be jumped through in order to get Redwine up to Canada in order to make him available again to those who had breedings to him. I do know that there was hopes that Jill would NOT be able to own horses again, hopefully making it more feasible for them to buy Redwine and keep him safe and keep his quailty breeding available. Unfortunately that was a gamble that did not pan out.

I DO understand the other issues with the photo and how that can be a sting especially when Laurie was so stung by Jill in the first place, but it looks as though they tried to rectify that issue, and I just can’t understand why that should be held against a person for so long, or against VLF who was misinformed.

Seriously people when we know who the criminal is why are you trying to drag so many others into it?? I do not believe VLF is the criminal, nor is she trying to sway anyone, looks as though she is just trying to defend herself. If she was wrong about her statement to the photo then so be it, why does it have to turn into something else entireley that is completely False.

As for Ashland, IMHO I do not feel like they are the criminal either. I do agree they are guilty of not being transparent enough when it comes to this matter, however when they are working hard to try to give Redwine a perment home it’s hard to be completely transparent when there is still so much that has to be settled. There are times in business when you have to stay quiet in order to get things finalized.

Whether we like it or not Jill does OWN redwine, and I think it’s safe to say that we would all like it if he didn’t go back there. However no one is going to just give up on a horse like Redwine for nothing, that is just the reality, why should Ashland be pulled through the mud because they are they ones trying to help him. Again why are we chastising a good farm that does right by their horses and their clients, for trying to keep this stallion that MANY people love and have used. People your not happy that she gets her horses, but your not happy when someone is trying to keep her from having them. I just don’t get it. Maybe things could have been handled better at the time, but we can’t change the past all we can do is look to the future and hope that the right thing will be done.[/QUOTE]

For those who think you can have dealings with a crook & have it benifit you in the end, let this be a lesson. Jill has never wanted what was best for the horse, unless $$$ was at stake. She got her biggest asset out of dodge fast…

[QUOTE=Show boots;7596888]
What do you think Jill got out of leasing redwine, some warm fuzzy feelings. Either they paid her or they paid off her debts. She is benefiting. If it’s not monetarily it could be as simple as hiding an asset. And each and every additional breeding he gets increased his value. Each and every offspring he has that sells for x amount of dollars keeps his value up.

Sorry there is no horse, worth dragging your reputation through the mud for. There are some people you don’t have anything to do with. After the condition of her house and bad business came to light Jill was one of them.

And sorry, I don’t sympathize with Ashland. They don’t get a pat on the back. And a job well done and a golden star. Had they let Jill sink, it is very likely she’d be out of the business, and they probably could have acquired redwine for peanuts.[/QUOTE]

Ding! Ding! Ding!

It will keep his value up only as long as he doesn’t go back to her. I 100% believe if he goes back to her, he will immediately crash as a stallion, as in people buying breedings or getting foals off Burnell, or foals that were produced past the time when he’s back in her hands.

Your last paragraph is just speculation, you don’t know if she would have crashed, you just don’t know. Simple as that. They acted at the time because the risk to lose the opportunity vs. see what happens over time just didn’t out weigh it, so they acted. When I think of the many who were screwed over by Jill and her breedings that were not honored, I just think they must be ever so greatful to Ashland. I think it’s a shame that you can’t at least see that benefit and that they attempted to help those who were innocent in the whole equation.

Also helping to pay off her depts isn’t necessarily going to help her all that much as she has so many convictions against her, all it’s going to do is help out MORE innocent victims from the whole Burnell ordeal.

This is the problem seen over and over again in these type of abuse/neglect situations. On one side we say let her sink, crash and burn and good riddence to her, but it’s not like other businesses where there are inanimate objects that cannot suffer. So then there is the other side of the equation; we have to act on the best interest of those horses that are currently being affected not the imaginary ones that could be. This unfortunately and most often condtradicts the first thought…

There is no right answer. I for one am glad they acted. However it looks to you, and the others on this board. I choose the scenario that occured any day over the scenario of him being left to wilt away with Jills reputation, and the one that would keep him out of the breeding shed.

A couple of thoughts:

Laurierace DID call and ask or demand to have her filly’s photo removed. Multiple times, iirc. It wasn’t until the photographer called and threatened legal action due to copyright laws that Ashland agreed. Laurierace should never have had to call in the first place. Ashland should have called before printing.

Ashland repeatedly swore up and down that they bought Redwine outright. They kept saying (early on) that he was theirs, he would not go back to Jill, it was not a lease, they bought him. It wasn’t until later, when people starting loudly advertising not to do business with them because they weren’t telling the truth, thereby giving the impression they were hiding an asset and purposely illegally helping Jill, that they reneged and told the truth. That right there is the main reason I would never do business with them. Be forthright!

I am am glad the stallion landed softly, at least for a while. Aloha, too. Though I believe he’s a nutcase, he doesn’t deserve the abuse he endured. I can only hope Romantic doesn’t return to that squaller, and I’m grateful Federalist doesn’t ever have to. It still comes down to honesty and benefitting an animal abuser (which Jill IS benefitting because it is still her name out there as the SO).

It is sort of a unique situation as there were a multitude of reasons not to do business with Jill Burnell of Gray Fox Farm long before the humane issues surfaced. I assume that the horses will at least have adequate care this time around since she will be under the watchful eye of MHS but what about all the other stuff? I think anyone who choses to do business with her at any point in the future is not only taking a personal risk that she will in some manner defraud them but also give her the means to possibly create new clients to defraud. The only answer is to not do business with her or anyone who choses to do business with her so she is forced to salvage what she can and sell off her assets. Anyone who really cared about the horses and not just their own pocketbook would do just that.

[QUOTE=andyvee;7596926]
It will keep his value up only as long as he doesn’t go back to her. I 100% believe if he goes back to her, he will immediately crash as a stallion, as in people buying breedings or getting foals off Burnell, or foals that were produced past the time when he’s back in her hands.

Your last paragraph is just speculation, you don’t know if she would have crashed, you just don’t know. Simple as that. They acted at the time because the risk to lose the opportunity vs. see what happens over time just didn’t out weigh it, so they acted. When I think of the many who were screwed over by Jill and her breedings that were not honored, I just think they must be ever so greatful to Ashland. I think it’s a shame that you can’t at least see that benefit and that they attempted to help those who were innocent in the whole equation.

Also helping to pay off her depts isn’t necessarily going to help her all that much as she has so many convictions against her, all it’s going to do is help out MORE innocent victims from the whole Burnell ordeal.

This is the problem seen over and over again in these type of abuse/neglect situations. On one side we say let her sink, crash and burn and good riddence to her, but it’s not like other businesses where there are inanimate objects that cannot suffer. So then there is the other side of the equation; we have to act on the best interest of those horses that are currently being affected not the imaginary ones that could be. This unfortunately and most often condtradicts the first thought…

There is no right answer. I for one am glad they acted. However it looks to you, and the others on this board. I choose the scenario that occured any day over the scenario of him being left to wilt away with Jills reputation, and the one that would keep him out of the breeding shed.[/QUOTE]

Had Ashland farm thought of their future and securing redwine, they would have devalued him by not breeding him and allowing him to produce foals. They could have said. We didn’t get one single breeding and due to that he’s only worth this much. The demand of redwine creates his price.

I have zero doubt Jill would have crashed and burned. Who in there right mind would put biological matter processed by her in their mares, after seeing that photo. Raise your hand if you’d allow semen from that house near your mare? I’m not sure about you but even third world breeding farms don’t have dog poop and dead chickens, and complete filth in their breeding farm. No one needs fancy, super high tech, but I do think cleanliness is an expectation.

I really think you need to understand that if they paid her bills it is equivalent to paying her. I have no doubt the bills she incurred and they paid off were sufficiently high enough to start going after her assets. The biggest one is redwine. That land has little value, those broodmares have little value, that used travel trailer had little value, her used cars have little value, the junkyard has little value, a fire sale of the youngsters she had was little value, aloha, and romantic star had little value, but forcing the sale of redwine would have meant people got paid.

You are supporting a crook. You are either appreciating the value of redwine or you are making a terrible investment and breeding to a horse whose offspring will be worthless because no honest buyer will get involved.

Come on say to yourself I am benefiting Jill Burnell. I am buying goods from a known animal abuser, and a farm whose actions are sketchy at best.

Wouldn’t it be nice to go back in time and let it play out. Who really knows what would have happened. It could of gone through court, it could take a number of years for assests to be forced to sell, for people to be paid, for her to be pushed out of business. Or maybe it would have taken so long that it never ended up happening. Who knows. That the problem, none of us are psychics.

There are just too many sides to this story, too many opinions, to many points of view to properly air this out on an online board.

I think it’s just sad all around. :frowning: innocents get screwed, stallions get defamed, farms get crushed. I guess I’d just rather try to look at the best of a very crappy situation.

It might be easy to keep Redwine in Canada if his health record is exposed…I doubt they want those horse STDs border crossing.

[QUOTE=Jealoushe;7597103]
It might be easy to keep Redwine in Canada if his health record is exposed…I doubt they want those horse STDs border crossing.[/QUOTE]

There are currently NO restrictions in place for EAV positive semen crossing the Canadian-U.S. border. So health record exposed or not, the U.S./Canadian borders does not care. :wink: