It would be interesting to know what the quantities were that were found in both horses’ blood samples. I hate the “zero tolerance” aspect of the FEI rules. I can’t imagine Jock would be stupid enough to use reserpine at Burghley
[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;7213874]
It is really scary. I have one FEI horse in my barn right now (out of 25 horses)…and it is scary how easily he could get bute or something else in his system just because someone uses the wrong bucket…or puts him in the wrong stall for a minute and he eats something.[/QUOTE]
This surprises me, most barns here use individual labelled buckets & stalls (no sharing ever) - OTOH I can think of 1 showbarn that just tosses whichever horse in whichever stall, uses whichever bucket - while advertising individualized care, personal stalls, T/O’s etc …
[QUOTE=Winding Down;7213944]
Not necessarily. Where do you get that?[/QUOTE]
The FEI rules, if your horse tests positive it’s an automatic 2 years although it says it might be a little less with the mitigating factors (if it wasn’t intentional).
[QUOTE=FitToBeTied;7214037]To paraphrase Occam’s Razor:
“The explanation requiring the fewest assumptions is most likely to be correct.”[/QUOTE]
Exactly, if you hear hoofbeats think horses not zebras.
[QUOTE=flyracing;7214201]We had a pony sell, pending the drug test. It came back positive for reserpine. I had never even seen the drug in my life, much less given it to a bomb proof event pony. Did some panicky research, and found out a specific weed can cause a positive result. And guess what we found a couple of in the pasture? Crazy! There was a more sensitive version of the test $600 that could determine the difference. We did that and indeed it proved it was only a weed. It was a lovely waste of money, time and lot of stress.
Does FEI use the same test that can lead to false positives?[/QUOTE]
I’m pretty sure the FEI is more than capable of determining the difference between a weed and a banned substance.
[QUOTE=alto;7214564]
This surprises me, most barns here use individual labelled buckets & stalls (no sharing ever) - OTOH I can think of 1 showbarn that just tosses whichever horse in whichever stall, uses whichever bucket - while advertising individualized care, personal stalls, T/O’s etc …[/QUOTE]
Having worked in a handful of UL barns, one of which I know just about everyone in this thread has ridden with or read literature from, I can say it is not that uncommon. People can, and sometimes do, pop Dobbin in Darcy’s stall during a thunderstorm or an emergency or maybe it is for a farrier visit and it was easier to put him in Darcy’s (dirty) stall than pull him from the paddock or put him in a stall that was just cleaned. But what happens if Darcy, who is out for the farrier, has been on stall rest for months because of a shoulder fracture and has been on reserpine? And Dobbin has been licking Darcy’s feed bucket.
It is really that easy.
I can think of a number of reasons that workers or barn help may elect to put a horse in a different stall than its’ own and every instance, whether correct or not, can result in putting the horse’s “drug free” integrity in jeopardy.
Call me jaded, but if two horses in one string come up with reserpine, I don’t think it was an accident.
[QUOTE=beowulf;7214593]
Call me jaded, but if two horses in one string come up with reserpine, I don’t think it was an accident.[/QUOTE]
The two horses were not from the same string, they were being ridden by two different riders from two different yards. They just both happen to be “Clifton” horses.
I have often said how easy it would be for just about anyone to walk by my horse’s stall at an FEI event and feed it a horse cookie. After all, I spend hours and hours away from the stall, course-walking, chatting, tack cleaning, and sleeping.
Even in “secure” FEI barns… there are still tons of people milling about. I walked through a “secure” FEI barn at a H/J show this summer. Was looking for a trainer - and there was no security present so I was able to just walk right in.
[QUOTE=CarolinaGirl;7214621]
The two horses were not from the same string, they were being ridden by two different riders from two different yards. They just both happen to be “Clifton” horses.[/QUOTE]
There is a little more connection than that, though. Kevin McNab is Jock’s first trainer/mentor, and I got the impression from interviews with Jock that they are still friendly.
[QUOTE=CarolinaGirl;7214621]
The two horses were not from the same string, they were being ridden by two different riders from two different yards. They just both happen to be “Clifton” horses.[/QUOTE]
I stand corrected then :yes:
Reserpine lowers blood pressure.
Lowering blood pressure in a horse could reduce bleeding.
Clifton Promise was stopped on course at Burghley for suspected bleeding, as was Paget’s other horse.
There’s an explanation for this. Let’s hear it.
[QUOTE=Xctrygirl;7214022]
Now since it is England, one could wonder if someone did this intentionally. I doubt it. But the levels found would indicate the levels of it readily in his system and point to cross contamination or intentional doping.
Emily[/QUOTE]
Reserpine was isolated in 1952 from the dried root of Rauwolfia serpentina (Indian snakeroot), which had been known as Sarpagandha and had been used for centuries in India for the treatment of insanity, as well as fever and snakebites — Mahatma Gandhi used it as a tranquilizer. It was first used in the United States by Robert Wallace Wilkins in 1950. Its molecular structure was elucidated in 1953 and natural configuration published in 1955. It was introduced in 1954, two years after chlorpromazine. The first total synthesis was accomplished by R. B. Woodward in 1958.
Reserpine almost irreversibly blocks the uptake (and storage) of norepinephrine (i.e. noradrenaline) and dopamine into synaptic vesicles by inhibiting the Vesicular Monoamine Transporters (VMAT).
Reserpine has been discontinued in the UK for some years due to its numerous interactions and side effects.
[QUOTE=yourcolorfuladdiction;7214565]
I’m pretty sure the FEI is more than capable of determining the difference between a weed and a banned substance.[/QUOTE]
You have more faith in the FEI than I do (or ever will). :lol: 
[QUOTE=JER;7214661]
Reserpine lowers blood pressure.
Lowering blood pressure in a horse could reduce bleeding.
Clifton Promise was stopped on course at Burghley for suspected bleeding, as was Paget’s other horse.
There’s an explanation for this. Let’s hear it.[/QUOTE]
It just doesn’t make sense to me. Why would they use something so detectable with such a long withdrawal period when the likelyhood of getting tested was so high. This horse won Badminton clean in the spring and as far as I know the test for Reserpine hasn’t changed since then.
It seems like cross contamination is always a possibility with the increasingly sensitive tests so I’m not going to assume the worst just because someone has triggered a positive test until more facts come out. If it was cross contamination, they’re probably trying to figure out where and how both horses would have been exposed so I’m not judging them for not having an explanation right now.
If reserpine “has been discontinued in the UK”, how did it get in these horses’ systems? Only thing that would make sense with that would be a herbal supplement containing the plant.
Is reserpine, the drug, even available in the UK? If not and no herbal supplement is involved, someone would seem to have been violating UK law by getting and using it.
Apparently you can buy it in the herb shop, it’s “perky”; http://www.provedic.com/uk/perky-herbs-rauvolfia-serpentina.html
This place looks to be in India or somewhere other than the UK.
Their facebook page;
“About
Lowest price herbal and healthcare products from India. Free shipping & no minimum purchase! Visit us on http://www.provedic.com/”
Is it believable that somebody would give a horse this herbal compound without knowing what it contains ?
[QUOTE=vineyridge;7214760]
Is reserpine, the drug, even available in the UK? If not and no herbal supplement is involved, someone would seem to have been violating UK law by getting and using it.[/QUOTE]
Maybe it got flown in on Sheikh Mohammed’s jet. 
Totally just joking!
Anyway it seems so unlikely it would have been intentional or related to the bleeding on XC. These guys knew their horses would be tested. It does seem odd though that it is 2 Clifton horses who are at different yards. But maybe Jock was visiting Kevin’s yard for a few days or visa versa.
Does anyone know what plant it is that can give a false positive? I tried looking it up but without much success.
[QUOTE=alto;7214564]
This surprises me, most barns here use individual labelled buckets & stalls (no sharing ever) - OTOH I can think of 1 showbarn that just tosses whichever horse in whichever stall, uses whichever bucket - while advertising individualized care, personal stalls, T/O’s etc …[/QUOTE]
We do use individual buckets…labled with their names and name on the door. But mistakes happen. Or someone mixes feed in one bucket with their hands or spoon and then mixes the next bucket. THAT is enough for cross contamination. Or someone is cleaning a horses stall and puts a horse in another stall for a minute and they lick the feed tub. Accidents can happen especially when you have a bigger barn. I own 15 horses. Yes, the ones that live in have their own stall but you know, for various reasons, another may “borrow” their stall for a minute. It is NOT uncommon at all. And if my FEI horse wants in from his paddock, but they are still cleaning his stall…I’d think nothing of them putting him in another empty stall for a minute.
If the accident happened it could have happened months ago…resurpine stays in their system a long time. If they wanted to stop a bleeder… Resurpine would not be a likely choice.
[QUOTE=JER;7214661]
Reserpine lowers blood pressure.
Lowering blood pressure in a horse could reduce bleeding.
Clifton Promise was stopped on course at Burghley for suspected bleeding, as was Paget’s other horse.
There’s an explanation for this. Let’s hear it.[/QUOTE]
I thought they were both found to have cuts.
Maybe HRH of the FEI aided in the transport to the UK?! :lol:
Legal in the eu? Very accessible in the US& I could easily get it to FEI stabling so…Where was horse tested to get this result?
Ace can work wonders for hoof pain - can reserpine? Not sure why you’d ever want to ride an UL horse around an UL course on this drug…very well documented length of wd times…is this one of those drugs they thought not testable when used with X?
[QUOTE=EWim15;7214834]
Does anyone know what plant it is that can give a false positive? I tried looking it up but without much success.[/QUOTE]
As Equibrit posted above, the plant that reserpine comes from is Rauwolfia serpentina. It’s categorized as a tropical or subtropical plant, though, so I have trouble believing it’s growing wild in a pasture in Surrey (Florida or something, sure, plausible). It does look like it’s an ingredient in a lot of herbal “blood pressure supplements” for humans readily available online, though.
Will the FEI release the levels of reserpine found in the A sample once they test the B sample? Though if it’s a trace amount, it would be hard to tell if it was a recent cross contamination or a poorly timed withdrawal.
Isn’t the test for reserpine a relatively new thing? I know it used to be popular in the H/J world because their was no test for it, so is it possible that someone didn’t know it was something that could be tested for now?
