John Lyons Self load Trailering Help

[reithme2]

I’m looking for advice to improve my OTTB’s trailer loading skills.

Before I got my OTTB I know he had some issues loading which I think stemmed from not knowing how to back off a trailer (I assume he was previously shipped in a larger rigs with ramps, etc.). The first time he got in a step up (3 horse slant) they couldn’t get him off, he sat on the trailer for hours (or so I’m told). The next several times he was hard to get in and I believe force was used. When I got him I knew we’d need to work on this so I spent some time working with him stepping on and off objects, etc. After some time I worked on loading him and thought we’d fixed the issue. For two years he’d walk right into a variety of trailers (slants, straight loads, setups, etc.).

About a year ago he refused to get in a trailer he’d been in before on our way home. It wasn’t too horrific but took us a good hour to get him in with much coaxing. Since then we’ve been working with him, loading him often and feeding him inside and though it has improved we still havent gotten him to the point where I can just walk him in. Usually I need someone behind me tapping his rump with a crop/stick, etc.

I read about John Lyons method to teach them to self load and thought this may be our solution. Last night I spent a few hours working with him using the method of tapping his hip with a dressage whip and standing at his shoulder. For over an hour we made almost no progress, hed drop his head, sniff, chew, take a small step forward and then back. But for the vast majority of the time he just stood. After an hour he was resting a foot and seemed quite ‘stuck’. I switched from a dressage whip to a stick with a small flag (i think this is parelli tool? NOT a parelli person). This seemed to perk him up a bit more and I started to tap further back from his hip and eventually got him in. I think you are supposed to do one foot at a time but he pretty suddenly hopped in and was caught off guard. I rewarded with treats and backed out to try again. At this point I thought I should try to it once more even if he didnt get all the way in to reinforce the ‘forward’ cue. The second time he quickly would put one foot in and then back out, and eventually went in after almost 30 minutes. So 2 hours in total and loaded completely twice.

I realize and agree that its not a loading issue but a ‘go forward’ and ground work issue. I do plan on doing more ground work but just wondered if people had advice regarding this method and how I could improve. Is the goal that they are walking in completely relaxed? It was difficult to keep his attention on the task/not let him fall asleep but also not get him too excited/anxious. My horse is a nervous extrovert that largely internalizes his fears. I believe he is nervous about loading/unloading and not being a total A** but perhaps he has my number…?

Also, one caveat, as mentioned he was once terrible at unloading to the point they let him turn around, he has since improved but always unloads in hurried quick steps and once his back feet are our often slides his front feet out of the trailer. I try to encourage one step back at a time but despite trailering often this hasn’t improved. Once in the trailer he is a champ and hauls great, always eating hay and seeming confident.

Any advice would be great! Thanks!

[Scribbler]

I think that you do not necessarily want to load and unload over and over in one session, because you are teaching the horse to get on and then get off again. So maybe put up the ramp and let him stand in the trailer for 5 or 10 minutes and feed treats or something. then unload.

What kind of trailer are you using? In my straight haul I like to let me mare off last, and swing back the center divider so she has more room to back off. This has made her more relaxed and she has stopped rushing off. she has always loaded on very well, though.

I would practice backing up in hand, and if you have a circus box or ramp or similar on the farm, practice walking up and back down. Or even backing over poles on the ground. Just to get him used to back up when there is something there. Absolutely I think in a relatively smart horse, anxiety about “how am I going to get off this thing?” will impact their desire to get on it in the first place, even if getting on doesn’t really worry them.

You might also think about how comfortable he is walking backward in general, if he is at all stiff back there.

[Where_sMyWhite]

IMO also, if he does something you’ve been asking for for a period of time, reward and stop. Don’t ask one more time. Stop.

Practice again at a later time/date but if you get what you’ve been asking, call it good.

A potential problem in their mind if they do as you’ve asked and you repeat the exercise they’re might wonder what the heck was wrong with what they just did.

:encouragement:

[Abbie.S]

Agreed with above. You already have kind of stated you know this is an issue of this horse not being 100%, undeniably halter-broke. His feet get stuck and so sometimes he loads, sometimes he doesn’t. But if the horse does “get the idea” and loads well, that’s the end of conversation. If you’re talking to someone and express and idea, and they state they understand, you don’t hammer the point home 10 more times to make sure they really got it. You take them at their word and move on. The idea that we need to repeat “behaviors” to “reinforce the idea” is antiquated and does not work with how horses think.

This is how I “teach” trailer loading - I don’t even touch a trailer until I’ve got the horse broke enough that they will move off in a circle, forward, backward and laterally off a soft feel. I take quite a bit of time working out their kinks on the ground so there’s no sticky feet, no place they routinely get “stuck” if asked to move a certain way. This takes care of 95% of trailer loading: at that point, most horses hop right in because they it’s not about the trailer, it’s about their feet being free to move in all directions.

This is why truly halter-broke horses whose handlers have been attentive to working out their stiffnesses on the ground can get into a trailer accident or have a bad experience and not become bad loaders after - they understand how to move their feet and have confidence in that and so they’ll load again without hesitancy.

When I have the ability, I work in the following order:
Open stock trailer: lead horse in, lead horse out. Then direct horse in, direct horse out. Then lead horse in, back horse out. The direct horse in, horse stands and waits facing away and straight, then enter trailer and back horse out.
The progress to slant or straight load - starting with a straight load trailer where the horse has no choice but to back out is asking a lot more of the horse right from the get-go. I avoid this when I can.

[Frosty_M]

@Where'sMyWhite

IMO also, if he does something you’ve been asking for for a period of time, reward and stop. Don’t ask one more time. Stop.

Practice again at a later time/date but if you get what you’ve been asking, call it good.

A potential problem in their mind if they do as you’ve asked and you repeat the exercise they’re might wonder what the heck was wrong with what they just did.

:encouragement:

This is great advice and absolutely right! When you are trying to load a horse you are putting pressure on him. When he loads you reward him and tell him how great he is and take the pressure off him by NOT doing it again. That teaches him what you want him to do. Otherwise, it’s confusing- like he cant win. You’re making good progress. Keep us posted, please…

[Melissa.Van_Doren]

I’m a huge fan of John Lyons’ Leading and Loading video. A friend sent it to me in the early 90s when I bought a large pony who would throw himself on the ground rather than load into even the most inviting of trailers. After watching/studying it a few times, it took me five hours over two days to teach that little bugger to load/unload calmly and consistently, and it’s worked like a charm ever since. Success now is almost always within an hour, even for the most resistant.

The “secret” is to pay attention to the timing of your cues and the response of the horse. The idea is to load calmly, not necessarily one step at a time (though that may be what you get in the beginning of the session). If the horse you’re working with is resting a leg and falling asleep, he doesn’t yet understand that when he walks up to the trailer his job is to get on. DO be patient. DO let him relax with each step. But also DO ask him to continue making consistent progress: If he gets two feet into the trailer, stands/sniffs/relaxes and then backs off, he should be quickly/kindly asked to get back to that point again and then asked to go past that point. Don’t hassle him into worry, but do pay attention to his body language and ask him to move forward through the process as soon as he’s calm with each new situation.

[danacat]

An old-timer taught me a loading trick that really does work – at least it did for the troublesome loaders I came across over the years. What you do is use a lunge line – attach to horse’s halter, then run the line through the front/side window of trailer then back along outside of trailer to rear of horse standing near or on the ramp. Horse then sees no human in front of them inside the trailer – no human inside trailer pulling on them. Human is only behind horse using lunge line (give and take) to guide horse into trailer. You can even place line around horse’s butt like the ‘two people locking arms’ method to push horse into trailer. In this case human is off to side so no danger of getting kicked but again give and take is key – line behind butt is just a reminder to go forward not backward.

I don’t know exactly why this lunge line method works so well, but I guess horse gets to make its own decision to go forward into trailer with only minor interference from humans.

Could use same method for backing out too.

[reithme2]

Thanks for the advice all.

I am using a 2 horse slant, step up, gooseneck trailer. Sadly, I dont yet have my own trailer and have been working with him on loading because I have one to borrow at present.

Interesting perspective that once they load you should walk away/stop as they’ve answered the question… I’ve heard so often to do the opposite but I do like this line of thought.

I did work with this horse again yesterday and spent some time working on the forward command first. I was able to get him to load much faster the second time and after a minute in the trailer with treats and ‘good boys’ I backed him out and left it at that. However, I could still tell that he was nervous about loading.

I suppose I was hoping this method would get us to the point that he answers the question right away, calmly, instead of hesitating. Alas, it seems there is no miracle cure. Still it has given me more confidence that I can load him on my own in a relatively quick manner and hope he improves with time.

I’ve heard about the lunge line technique but for this horse I dont think its needed. He is willing to stand at the back of trailer calmly and the worst antic he pulls is swinging his butt away so hes perpendicular to the back of the trailer, usually after he does this once or twice and I correct him he’ll load. He isn’t a fan of being pulled forward and will often get more ‘stuck’. Instead he always needs more motivation from behind. The same thing happens on trails if he ‘spooks’ he’ll stop, if I keep him in front of my leg, no issue. Previously I’ve used a second person behind him tapping him with a crop/stick and now, with John Lyons method I can be that person and let him load himself. Hopefully we’ll keep improving!

As anyone without a trailer knows, its the absolute worse feeling when someone offers you a ride and your horse is a pain to get in.

[EventerAJ]

The key about teaching a horse to load well is knowing when to push and when to wait. Any time the horse looks away from the trailer, moves backward, or deliberately away, I apply increasing pressure. As soon as his attention is “back inside” I immediately release and praise. The early stages are about rewarding any interest or desire to go in the trailer. As long as his head is poking in, ears pricked, I wait. When he gets bored, ask for a forward step, and release pressure when you get it. I also release and praise when he lowers his head-- a really handy response for a horse to have when entering a low roof trailer.

Gradually you shape the desired behavior, making the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard. I only feed treats IN the trailer.

For a scrambling unloader, use food as a distraction. Use a bucket of grain to reward slow, measured steps backward, and to keep his head low. I personally hate step ups, as I’ve had multiple “good” loaders in my ramp trailers scare themselves and lose confidence after one bad experience backing off a step up. If possible, back your step up trailer into a low embankment to reduce the height of the step.

[reithme2]

Thanks for the tips. I agree that it is difficult to know when to wait and when to push. With this horse it seems to be an incredibly fine line, one minute he’ll lower his head to rub on his leg (seeming bored) and I’ll push for more and he’ll seem slightly upset but it seems we dont make progress unless he’s slightly upset. Still when he does load, he looks worried/concerned but loads in a very controlled manner and doesn’t look wigged out. I have tried to not push too hard. Ive seen him get pushed too hard/far and he’ll end up totally ‘stuck’ and shaking… poor guy! In general it’s clear he needs some more confidence and I do plan to work on that. I have access to a trailer for now so hoping to keep working on it and actually am hauling this weekend for a trail ride. Hope going for an actual ride doesnt set us back.

He is very good about keeping his head low when stepping in and backing out, he’s naturally a long and low build so no issues with head tossing. He actually has always been better to load in a step up, but have only had him in a ramp twice. The step up I’m using now is also a pretty low/easy step and a wide/X-tall trailer.

[Incantation]

I have used the John Lyons method and it worked quite well. If he is falling asleep, cocking an ankle, he does not understand the go forward cue. I suggest forgetting about the trailer, and training the cue somewhere else. Once he has the cue down pat, set up two ground poles parallel to each other and practice “loading” him in an out of them, one step at a time. Once he does that well, go back to the trailer and do the same there.

Many times horses become anxious because they are punished for backing up. Doing one step on then one step off, then two, then three, helps them to understand that unloading is allowed and necessary too, and decreases the anxiety. Once they load with this method, the horse should be calm, and it should not be a problem to do some repetitions, just reward between them.

[Scribbler]

Make sure the trail ride excursion is fun for him! Make the whole thing low key and let him graze or chill out after if you can. I think if they enjoy their outings that helps with the trailer. Not always going to high stress shows or the vet clinic.

[findeight]

Rubbing the head on the leg means he’s trying to change the subject. You need to patiently keep his attention focused on you and the trailer, not on his leg or anything else that happens by. That you can practice without the trailer, keep his focus on you with groundwork. No looking away, no trying to change the subject. That’s a core principle of most of what gets lumped in with NH, you have the horses respect and attention and make it very clear what horse is supposed to do. That’s how they “teach themselves” you remove all but that option and keep their attention. That usually takes awhile but horses bore easily and you will win that battle if you stay patient tapping with the whip or flag or just making them stand straight looking at the trailer without moving any other direction or losing focus on you and whatever method you have selected.

OP is doing fine, making progress but I would suggest when he goes in, she closes up the door/ramp and leaves him in there for longer then a few minutes. Last thing you want to do is teach him if he goes in hes done with the lesson and can come right back out yet that’s what they learn if you aren’t real careful how you teach the loading phase. Leave him in and let him eat hay for 20 minutes or so. Pretty soon he’ll be loading all by himself, let the trailer become his " me time" where you make no demands and he can eat in peace.

OP doesn’t need the lunge line method. That’s actually not so good for initially teaching one to load or reteaching one with a bad experience. It is however, perfect when you are by yourself with a horse that knows how to load but loses focus. It’s just a way to say hey, there’s something behind you so go forward. It won’t force one in that does not respect the handler and forward. If, however, one goes back through the lunge line (or anything else you have strung behind it), you will have successfully untaught it many important lessons it will take many boring, frustrating hours to reteach so don’t go there.

Works best and fastest if you practice every day until he self loads then less frequently but at least once a week for awhile. Let him eat dinner in there while you do other chores. Once you get this ingrained, you won’t need to refresh it but give it plenty of time and lots of repetitions to make sure it sticks. Don’t over react if he backslides a time or two, just repeat the lesson. That’s why horses can get sour on loading. They might have a moment and people panic, get excited and push too hard undoing all the trust they built in stead of just repeating the request to load quietly. Happens all the time.

IMO many horses don’t have any bad trailer experiences, they have bad experiences with people getting upset and impatient trying to load them therefore think they should be upset and impatient about loading in a trailer. Others have been confused about what they are supposed to do by well meaning but inlet attempts to load. Don’t overpraise or treat if they aren’t going in, that doesn’t soothe ir calm, it rewards not going in instead of rewarding after they are in. Changes the subject too.

To be honest, the only time I had loading trouble was when I was tired, stressed and looking at a very long drive in the dark after an even longer day. Not a bad idea to avoid that by staying until the next morning if you have any doubts about how long loading will take. They hop right in next morning when everybody is rested and the suns up.