I have heard of some breeders routinely putting their foals/youngsters on MSM to prevent DODs.
Does anyone here do this? If so, does anyone use a gloucosamine/condroitin (sp?) instead of MSM? Are there any issues with this?
Here’s one that a lot of people use with youngsters for treatment or prevention. It’s called OCD Pellets: http://www.ocdpellets.com/shop/.
Nothing is proven to work though. Just keep that in mind. I am studying under an equine nutrionist right now and she always tells me its a waste of money to have my mare on them because nothing is proven. If you have the extra money to spend on it then go for it. It can’t hurt.
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I decided to put my now 4 year old on a joint supplement when she was young. At the time, the rest of the crew was getting Glanzen GL, so Rubianna got it as well. She is a big boned warmblood and the horse of my dreams. I figured I would just give her the joint supplement to hopefully help prevent any wear and tear from doing crazy foal things.
My vet went to a conference where they were suggesting starting horses on joint supplements at young ages, before arthritic changes began. I went with that. I probably won’t know for 20 years whether or not this was the way to go. In my mind, it is a very small price to pay for peace of mind. I realize my peace of mind may be false, but it keeps my stress levels down 
Now that Rubianna is in work she is getting Finish Line Total Control. It has everything she needs and means only one supplement!
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[QUOTE=Live2Jump;4472275]
I have heard of some breeders routinely putting their foals/youngsters on MSM to prevent DODs.
Does anyone here do this? If so, does anyone use a gloucosamine/condroitin (sp?) instead of MSM? Are there any issues with this?[/QUOTE]
I would doubt there is any problem at all with using a pure product like msm. Nothing better then peace of mind right ;] Does it prevent future problems? Who knows. Can it hurt? I highly doubt it. So why not? 
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All my babies get MSM and since they are big warmbloods, once they are in steady or more demanding work they get an HA product. The bigger horses are harder on their bodies and, as a result, their joints. It does no harm to improve the quality of their joint lubication early with an oral HA product. I use the MSM to help prevent OCD (does it work? Don’t know but its pretty inexpensive).It still leaves me lots of options down the road in regard to maintainence.
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I remember an article that said the biggest factor that does have an influence is having the mare on a copper supplement before the foal is born.
Dan
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Mild disagreement – not only do we not know whether the supplements help, we don’t know if they HARM! Consider this scenario - you begin giving a weanling a joint supplement. The body recognizes the adequacy of lubrication, defines the baseline amount, and produces less for the rest of the horse’s life. Unlikely? We just don’t know. Perhaps just like selenium, too much is even worse than not enough.
I believe that a horse’s health is an equilibrium between building and tearing down. When young, the building phase is dominant. I’m scared to force the equilibrium in any direction by direct application of either force or concentrated meds (supplements), because I’m just not smart enough to know. We do know that foals fed highly concentrated feeds with little exercise are subject to a myriad of developmental issues – not the least of which are mental! I suspect that over supplementation can be a similar issue.
My philosophy is to maximize turnout and exercise, lots of Dr. Grass and Dr. Sunshine, plenty (practically free choice for a weanling) of high quality grain and hay as needed. If they get fat, reduce, if they’re too skinny, increase. Provide regular medical and farrier attention, worming, and vax. Give them the opportunity to run and play and jump in the creek and gallop up and down a rocky hill and jump banks and ditches and in particular to SOCIALIZE WITH THEIR PEERS. Supplement and/or medicate as indicated, but not prophylactically.
Who knows who’s right? I respect those who do differently, I just know that my babies grow up big and tough and for the most part confident and fearless. They’ll have a bump or two on them, but cosmetic blemishes are much preferable to joint and limb problems, malformations, and chronic insanity. And when we buy a three-year old, please help me avoid one that’s been mollycoddled and protected, over-humanized, as a baby.
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I like Secretariat’s response! Inflammation is a necessary part to bone building and strengthening, I would not and have never give a young growing horse MSM to reduce this. If inflammation due to hard play is present, it needs TIME to repair, to strengthen to a point where it CAN take this sort of stress. To mask it with an anti-inflammatory preparation seems counter productive and dangerous to me. MSM has it’s uses, in anti-inflammatory treatment, and as a sulphur source, but not in foal or young horse nutrition IMO.
You can’t guard against injuries by treating them before they happen. A young horse needs to run hard, play hard, get some inflammation in young bones and joint surfaces to GAIN the healing and strengthening they need to become sound horses in later life. If an owner wants to suppliment glucosamine/chondroitin etc to top up building blocks for repair, most of this will simply be excreted and wasted, if the diet is already sufficient in nutrients. Loading extra does not make it better. If a horse has OCD problems or injury, then treat them and help him out. If he does not have these problems, treating them is only an unneeded expense.
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[QUOTE=Foxdale Farm;4472333]
Here’s one that a lot of people use with youngsters for treatment or prevention. It’s called OCD Pellets:[/QUOTE]
Our yearling colt has been on these now for 6mo. He is HUGE, and when I asked our vet about using these while he was growing, he said it wouldn’t be a bad idea. They are pretty expensive though, so I was thinking it could be easier/less expensive for me to put him on the gloucosamine/condroitin supplement that my retiree is already on instead. I’ve heard of breeders using the OCD pellets and MSM, but haven’t really with the gloucosamine/condroitin (not sure why?). So if I do decide to continue with some joint support, I would prefer using that to MSM or the OCD pellets, since I already buy it in bulk.
That’s interesting, I hadn’t heard that. What problems could a copper deficiency during pregnancy create? Is that included in most daily vitamins (HorseGuard, Millenium Gold, etc)?
This is exactly my concern, it would make sense to me that this could happen, but I haven’t heard of any studies that prove either way (whether joint supps are a good or a bad thing for youngsters).
I guess I’m waffling now between whether I should keep him on the OCD pellets or a G/C until he is 3, or if I should just take him off the joint supps now since his legs aren’t growing as rapidly anymore (he is currently almost 16hh at 15 months - he had been growing up up up very fast, but now he seems to be focusing more on adding bulk instead)…
I heard about copper in broodmares too years ago (as well as vit E). The one thing though that I found was no one seemed to know how much or how to supplement it. Ideally a blood analysis should be done to determine the safe amount because too much can be harmful. I have used msm in babies for years and have seen no ill effects and have only ever had one ocd case and he was an extremely big fast growing colt that even though his diet was very well balanced (we use balancers and consult with equine nutritionists regularly) he still developed ocd in hocks only and we had to do surgery to remove chips. He never was lame a day in his life and as all our babies, got 24/7 turnout and brought in twice a day to feed mom and check over and get baby use to grooming etc… I wonder if he would of been worse if he didn’t receive the msm or balanced diet and turnout. But I do only give a minimum amount and it is mainly for my peice of mind. I now give the 2yo that had ocd a glucosamine and HA product as well since he is starting light work (longing and long lining lightly with tack and I have sat on back at walk, won’t do much more until 3yo). I also wrap legs and don’t work him on uneven ground.
I have to say that people have a tendecy to think if some is good then a lot must be better. I got a mare years ago as a 3yo. She had horrible hoof wall but was sound and there seemed to be no explanation for it. I would understand some superficial cracks etc. but she had extreme cracks (I am a certified farrier and her feet were well balanced). I found out that ever since she was a long weanling her owner decided to put her on vit E and Selenium even though blood analysis not done nor was feed and forage analyzed. One of the symptoms of too much selenium is hoofwall deteriation (can get so bad hooves can actually slough off!). This person had her on 4X the recomended amount for a once a day recommended supplement and was given this twice a day so daily she was 8x over recommended daily highest amount for a horse needing it and apparently this horse was not even in a selenium deficient area? Her feet are stabilized now many years later but they will never be pretty. Even though genetically she is predisposed to surface cracks hers can get so wide and deep that I have to epoxy and fill them in at times! My point is, before any supplement is used people should really check if there can be any harmful results if horse doesn’t require it. I think people love their horses so much they over feed and over supplement a great deal here in the U.S.
[QUOTE=Dan;4477748]
I remember an article that said the biggest factor that does have an influence is having the mare on a copper supplement before the foal is born.
Dan[/QUOTE]
Ditto. But not just copper. The phosphorous, calcium and manganese were also very important - - more important before foal is born as even supplementing it after the foal was born was not nearly as effective as foals studied to have received adequate amounts of the copper, phos, calc, and manganese before they were born. The article I read this from was from the Kentucky Equine Research Institute and study was performed on hundreds of farms in Germany and around the United States.
OCD pellets are just trace minerals, Corta-flx, and zeolite (silicon source). You can buy straight zeolite inexpensively from Platinum (“Osteon”).
At my old dressage barn, I knew several people that routinely IV injected Hyonate monthly as a preventative (horses as young as 3). The trainer administered it (thankfully not my trainer).
[QUOTE=ljshorses;4478860]
One of the symptoms of too much selenium is hoofwall deteriation (can get so bad hooves can actually slough off!). This person had her on 4X the recomended amount for a once a day recommended supplement and was given this twice a day so daily she was 8x over recommended daily highest amount for a horse needing it and apparently this horse was not even in a selenium deficient area? Her feet are stabilized now many years later but they will never be pretty. Even though genetically she is predisposed to surface cracks hers can get so wide and deep that I have to epoxy and fill them in at times! My point is, before any supplement is used people should really check if there can be any harmful results if horse doesn’t require it. I think people love their horses so much they over feed and over supplement a great deal here in the U.S.[/QUOTE]
Good to know - I didn’t realize that too much Selenium did this.
Thanks! His growth seems to be slowing down and getting much steadier now. I will probably try giving him just the zeolite for few more months, then take him off all but his vitamins when he turns 2.
My vet cited recent research that suggested that Adequan is effective against epiphysitis. I did not personally read it however.
Retrofit, that would make sense, since epiphysitis/physitis is INFLAMMATION of the growth plates on the ends of long bones, which are the joints. The Adequan has an anti-inflammatory effect and would help settle said inflammation, buying you time to evaluate and make changes to that particular youngster’s feeding program and individual needs.
[QUOTE=rodawn;4490614]
Retrofit, that would make sense, since epiphysitis/physitis is INFLAMMATION of the growth plates on the ends of long bones, which are the joints. The Adequan has an anti-inflammatory effect and would help settle said inflammation, buying you time to evaluate and make changes to that particular youngster’s feeding program and individual needs.[/QUOTE]
That’s good to hear. I was starting to think she just knew a sucker when she saw one. :lol:
When started reading 'VIT E" I almost had a heart attack. I can understand selenium BUT VIT E has been the “miracle” supplement for humans and creatures alike. It helps brain, eye site, it is also helps with gut mobility and in the winter especially/changes in weather,- I give that to ALL my horses. Brood mare gets about 2x-4x the amount. I have been giving this to the foal as well. I did buy Dumor Joint supplement for my filly as she is BIG 14h2 at 7 month and growing. Personally I believe that Glucosamine and Chondroitin are just like protein and calcium,- the building blocks for the healthy joints. The stress on those joints determins how much needs to be deposited just like the bone when it develops or heals after the injury. “Bones respond to stress” and I believe the joints too especially when forming. aka “The bigger the stress and the more building material body will need”. It really doesn’t do anything for synovial fluid and if anything I would imagine it would be thicker that would help concussion on those joints. I had one fantastic TB. He was tall but when I got him as almost 3 yo he was skin and bones. I imagine he didnt get good nutrition when he was developing. He was a gifted jumper and so much power and scope he could outjump many WB. BUT I had come to learn that he would bruise his cannons. When Vet gave him injection that suppose to stay in the joint he also drew some of the fluid. He was very surprised that fluid was VERY thin. More like water then oil. Kinda like that famous car additive. The injection (widely used in Europe and almost impossible to get in USA) REALLY helped him. He restarted jumping and was jumping the moon but sadly sold and didnt transition to a new owner and was euthenized before I could get there. So to make my story short My vote is YES. My reason is that body will use whatever material it needs to build what it has to endure IF it has access to the building blocks. BUT everything is good in moderation. I am sure even VIT E in significant amounts can do damage… well it can cause diarrhea hence I use it as colic prevention and so far it has worked very well.
I’m with secretariat and NancyM. I worry that supplementing a young horse long term with something like a joint product will change how and what the body does for itself. The body shouldn’t need additional building blocks that it can’t get from quality hay.
I don’t start joint supplements until a horse is 8 or 9 and/or if we’re jumping big fences (>1.30m) and I feel like the horse is really using itself.
My babies usually get a basic supplement (e.g. regular Platinum Performance), but nothing else. Same goes for my young horses who are starting their show careers in the YJC ring. No additional supplements unless there’s a specific need for something (like a gastro product for an ulcer-y type).
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