One thing to remember if you do get permission to speak with a judge. They will comment on your trip but do not expect them to discuss other people’s performance in the class with you and what they did and did not like about them.
[“If the judge didn’t see it, it didn’t happen.”[/QUOTE]
This. Like at the first outdoor AA show this spring when my horse walked into the ring with my trainer and the judge swung his chair around and TURNED HIS BACK ON MY RING TO WATCH A HORSE GO IN THE NEXT RING. I was watching this happen in real time and asked the gate guy to re-announce my horse’s number to try to attract his attention but he wouldn’t. The judge never turned around - missed the whole freaking trip. I was livid because my horse had a fantastic round that probably would have been in the top 3 but what could I do? Nothing. I just went to the office and told them I was NOT going to pay for that class if my horse’s number wasn’t written on the judge’s card - they checked and it wasn’t, so they didn’t make me pay at least.
The judge didn’t see it, so that whole trip never happened!
If you really have a question though, make sure you ask the steward right away. We were recently at a show and there were maybe 20 in the class, so I saw most trips go. Sport had a fantastic trip and we were expecting somewhere 1st to 3rd. Class jogged and we weren’t even called.
Went to the steward and just asked if they could check with the judge regarding the trip, they went to the judge while the class prepared to hack.
When putting down the results the judge missed seeing Sport’s score. He was actually 3rd.
If you have been watching all of the entries and really feel something is off, it does pay to ask politely for the steward to look into things.
Judges are human and mistakes happen.
^^
this has happened to me both as an exhibitor and a judge
[QUOTE=rb5007;8262763]
[“If the judge didn’t see it, it didn’t happen.”[/QUOTE]
This. Like at the first outdoor AA show this spring when my horse walked into the ring with my trainer and the judge swung his chair around and TURNED HIS BACK ON MY RING TO WATCH A HORSE GO IN THE NEXT RING. I was watching this happen in real time and asked the gate guy to re-announce my horse’s number to try to attract his attention but he wouldn’t. The judge never turned around - missed the whole freaking trip. I was livid because my horse had a fantastic round that probably would have been in the top 3 but what could I do? Nothing. I just went to the office and told them I was NOT going to pay for that class if my horse’s number wasn’t written on the judge’s card - they checked and it wasn’t, so they didn’t make me pay at least.
The judge didn’t see it, so that whole trip never happened![/QUOTE]
If you knew the judge was looking at another ring, why did you start your trip? I would have waited until the judge was ready.
[QUOTE=Xctrygirl;8262672]
Jim isn’t a “late” yet.
I would be woefully careful to not put him in the ground yet. He may come back at you with many tales of civil war soldiers who were also interned a bit prematurely.
~Emily[/QUOTE]
Yes, the Jim Wofford, eventer trainer, is not late. However, my Jimmy Wofford, equitation trainer & “R” judge, is late, by 5 years this month. He was my life long mentor. He was always willing to tell you how to improve. I miss him terribly.
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[QUOTE=RockinHorse;8262736]
One thing to remember if you do get permission to speak with a judge. They will comment on your trip but do not expect them to discuss other people’s performance in the class with you and what they did and did not like about them.[/QUOTE]
I can’t stress this enough. 
It is unethical for a judge to discuss or compare other rounds or horses. You may not be happy about it, but if you do get a chance to speak directly to the judge, they are only allowed to discuss your round/performance only.
This. Like at the first outdoor AA show this spring when my horse walked into the ring with my trainer and the judge swung his chair around and TURNED HIS BACK ON MY RING TO WATCH A HORSE GO IN THE NEXT RING. I was watching this happen in real time and asked the gate guy to re-announce my horse’s number to try to attract his attention but he wouldn’t. The judge never turned around - missed the whole freaking trip. I was livid because my horse had a fantastic round that probably would have been in the top 3 but what could I do? Nothing. I just went to the office and told them I was NOT going to pay for that class if my horse’s number wasn’t written on the judge’s card - they checked and it wasn’t, so they didn’t make me pay at least.
The judge didn’t see it, so that whole trip never happened!
This actually happened to my friend at Vermont last weekend in the hunters. There were 9 in the class, they pinned 8. I was 8th with a rail (green bean moment), she had a super nice trip and I told her trainer they needed to go talk to the office because there is no way she didn’t place. It was a no brainer and not subjective - I had a rail and was 8/9 and she had no major faults aside from a beautiful trip.
Sure enough, someone from the office be it secretary or steward got the judge’s card and her number wasn’t on it and they refused to pay for a class they weren’t judged in. It was a class with prize money too!
[QUOTE=Rel6;8263422]
This actually happened to my friend at Vermont last weekend in the hunters. There were 9 in the class, they pinned 8. I was 8th with a rail (green bean moment), she had a super nice trip and I told her trainer they needed to go talk to the office because there is no way she didn’t place. It was a no brainer and not subjective - I had a rail and was 8/9 and she had no major faults aside from a beautiful trip.
Sure enough, someone from the office be it secretary or steward got the judge’s card and her number wasn’t on it and they refused to pay for a class they weren’t judged in. It was a class with prize money too![/QUOTE]
good for your friend and the other poster who caught the judge “napping” on the job. For the fees you pay you deserve to be judged. I remember one show where it was a small class (side saddle) and obviously didn’t want to be bothered having to judge the class - and didn’t. He talked and had his backed turned the entire time. the least he could’ve done is faked it. He picked the horse that was more well known even though it didn’t jump as nice as our other horses did. Ugh.
[QUOTE=copper1;8262260]
Michael Page used to post his cards! The late Jim Wofford was always happy to discuss his reasons with exhibitors.[/QUOTE]
I hope he’s not late… I’m supposed to ride in a clinic with him next month!
First of all, thank you all for these great responses. I appreciate all of them, especially the direct quote from the rule. I try to be fair and sportsmanlike but this was an instance that really made me disheartened with our sport. This was not a case where the judge didn’t see it…the pony did the DOUBLE add in one line, single add in the other… in both rounds….and won the classic. It also had 2 chips in the medal and did the add in the only line on course. While the hunters are subjective, I don’t think they are THAT subjective, when you can overlook doing a 10 in the 8 stride line in the children’s hunters at an A show. My kid from was not going to win the classic - her scores were consistent with her rides(she added in 1 one line in the first round and got a 65 and a 66 doing the numbers in the second round)… But in the medal she has a great position, didn’t miss and pinned below the kid with 2 chips and the add. I didn’t think to request to speak to the judge at that point mostly because of the politics and to whom the child that won was related. It made me want to encourage my daughter to show in the jumpers….
Does sound like bad judging but without seeing the whole class from the judges perspective it is hard to be sure. While the adds and chips are bad, there are other faults that may be penalized even more sharply than those is an equitation class, for example loss of stirrup or rein.
well let’s put it this way… the double add and 2 chips was 3rd. No chips, right numbers, 1 swap at the last jump was 6th.
This is a good thread. I hope a lot of hunter folks read it. Findeight is so right about the best of the worst. Those are the hardest classes/shows to judge.
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A few years ago I was at the Washington International Horse Show, I had a seat just behind two of the judges. I was close enough to see their cards. Without a translation key, the symbols wouldn’t have meant much.
Know this is a zombie but just have to say If a Pony is competing against horses, in the Children’s Hunters, they get to add without penalty and 2 in an 8 stride would be appropriate. And a chip in the Medal is Equitation, not Hunters, judges discretion based on how everybody body else handled mistakes in the Eq. Where a chip is a better choice then a leave out if it’s just not there.
There’s issues, sure, but this isn’t bad judging.
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Way back in the good old days of rust breeches and non zippered boots, many judges at shows would include their cards in the office “books.” There was usually some decent feedback that could be gleaned about your trip. Of course, you could only do this with the steward’s permission and with their oversight. I learned through this that appy’s were really not a favorite in the hunter ring, no matter how well your rust breeches matched the spots and the grey coat matched the mane/tail. I also learned that the horrid habit of leaning at the base of the jump that my trainer harped on, really was apparent to the judge. I learned my hands could appear stiff (my horse liked to lay on them like a freight train because he was a QH built 3" downhill). When I had questions that were specific to my performance, I would approach the steward with my question and state it in such a way as to make sure everyone knew I was accepting of the results (I was) but I really wanted to understand what was seen and then I could take that back and use it with my video (VHS at the time) to improve. I never had a judge deny me that opportunity.
I have been the beneficiary of kind/overlooking judging and the recipient of in spite of everything the 3-legged lame horse is going to win the hack over your hunter that everyone on the rail is drooling over. I have complained when a judge didn’t watch my kid’s trip. I complained MORE when the reason given was because “I know the horse, love the kid’s ride and know they will win.” I requested the ride be voided because that was blatantly incorrect and unfair to the others.
Long story short, I think that most judges want to provide education. They do not want to be hounded at the end of a 15 hour day of watching 20,000 bay horses jump the same 8 fences. They do not remember your special bay horse. Attend a judging clinic. Ask the steward if you can ask a specific question to the judge…for example, “Bitsy and I were in the cute pony division and I had an unfortunate add up the line and I didn’t get a ribbon. My friend Susie’s pony had a missed change and placed 3rd. Can you help me understand how judges look at adds and changes?” And they may or may not answer. Because 20,000 bay horses, 15 hour day, rinse/repeat.
Personally, I’d like USHJA to require standardized judging emojis and posted cards. Keeps everyone honest and things make sense. And sometimes, the cute factor wins the tie.
I am a USEF R hunter judge and will attempt to answer why posting cards is not possible in this day and age. I actually copied my post from a previous thread on the same topic.
In hunters, the judge’s job is to remember every single round of that same class and place the riders and/or horses in the appropriate order. Asking to see the judge’s card in the hunters means you are also getting to see how everyone else did in that round, and that is not necessarily fair. Because things can happen quickly in the hunter ring and the judge must remember every round and everything that happened in every round, each judge using their own version of “short hand” to narrate a story for each round, which also makes it impossible to have a scribe…as the scribe’s short hand might be totally different than the judge’s short hand, which would make it tough to go back and review the class if the judge needed to do so. Because each judge has their own version of short hand, it makes it impossible to use universal symbols (although many do), most judge’s cards just look like a bunch of chicken scratch with no real explanation. Things written on a judge’s card like NAH, WR, TM, LF & MO are only going to make sense to myself. If you are lucky, the judge will have used numerical scoring, which could at least give you a final score…but many judge’s do not use numerical scoring on their cards (unless required to do open numerical scoring), and the score also does not tell you what went wrong or right during the round. Also, what one judge calls an 80 might be a 76 to another judge…so it is a moot point.
There is no rule stating a judge has to agree to discuss your round(s) with you. I don’t mean to sound cruel…but at the end of the day, I am there to judge a horse show, not give a clinic. If I had to discuss rounds with a bunch of different people, again, we would all be there until midnight. ;)Your statement above is the key reason competitors should have a trainer with them at a show. It is the trainer’s job to watch their student’s round and discuss the round with them after they are finished. The trainer will be able to explain where marks were lost and gained.
“If” a judge does give you permission to discuss your round, a good judge will only do just that - discuss your round and not allow you to look at the judge’s card. One, only the judge is going to be able to interpret the chicken scratch they wrote on the judges card, and two, this prevents you from viewing the rounds of the other riders in the class, which is a big no no.
Don’t shoot the messenger. But hopefully the above information helps explain why hunter score cards are not posted after the class is done. Attending a hunter clinic is a great way of learning what the judges look for and why they score some things as minor errors and others as major errors. And even then, it often comes down to what is happening in that particular round with that particular horse.
