Out of curiosity, has anyone ever asked to see the judge’s card at an A show? Is there a USEF rule which addresses this?
As far as I know, it’s against the rules for exhibitors to see a judge’s card. You can request to speak to the judge but you must go through the steward.
Does anyone know if there is a specific rule, though? Just wondering b/c there was some VERY questionable judging at a show I was at and was wondering about it. Of course, judging is subjective, and there is no recourse for shoddy judging as far as I know.
I guess I could just call USEF and ask them.
In Canada, if we have a question, we ask the steward and they will then arrange to speak with the judge.
OK maybe USEF is the same. It happened yesterday, and I am no longer at the show, so I guess I will just let it go. Thanks.
In hunter classes most judges have their own symbols and shorthand that wouldn’t necessarily mean anything to someone who is not familiar with them, so asking to see the card on its own would not likely clarify anything.
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Yeah I didn’t think about that. (Duh) probably should have just sought out the steward and spoke to the judge. lesson learned, i suppose.
GR1304
- No one shall approach a judge with regard to a decision unless he first obtains permission
from the Show Committee, steward or technical delegate who shall arrange
an appointment with the judge at a proper time and place. No exhibitor has the right to
inspect the judge’s cards without the judge’s permission.
Ah, but I have seen the judges cards at AA shows, looked like ancient hieroglyphics. Judge was still judging and unavailable to interpret. You can see the numeric score of all entrants but that’s not going to tell you why, just where you were compared to the others. That particular card, everybody was lower then expected.p, guy was tough to please,
I’ve complained directly to USEF and the show managers about questionable judging. One thing that was helpful was specific instances where mistakes were made (horse broke to the trot in a corner, added in a line) rather than stylistic opinion. We all know some judges really favor one style over another and there’s kind of nothing you can do about it.
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[QUOTE=greysfordays;8261462]
I’ve complained directly to USEF and the show managers about questionable judging. One thing that was helpful was specific instances where mistakes were made (horse broke to the trot in a corner, added in a line) rather than stylistic opinion. We all know some judges really favor one style over another and there’s kind of nothing you can do about it.[/QUOTE]
A polite but firm letter to your show manager is probably a good bet, especially in the scenarios that greys listed. Most managers will take an exhibitor complaint at least somewhat seriously, especially if you’re not yelling or whiney. They take that stuff into account when they hire for the next year.
We had an extraordinary judge here at a local show a few years ago who made himself available to the exhibitors after the show for a question and answer session , it turned into a fabulous 2 hour plus judges clinic. Exhibitors , Trainers even parents , could ask any question, he was polite forthright , honest and informative , some were a bit offended by his answers , ( at times he asked them are you sure you want the answer to that) but he answered them in the kindest way possible . I will never forget his generosity and patience.
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I love to answer questions about my judging. But truly it would be more confusing if you tried to read my shorthand without my interpretation.
I was “raised” by Ronnie Mutch, and he used to post his cards for all to see.
One of the things I love about judging IEA and IHSA is that the riders almost always wait around to ask what they can do better!
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Michael Page used to post his cards! The late Jim Wofford was always happy to discuss his reasons with exhibitors.
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https://www.usef.org/documents/competitions/LicOffEvaluation.pdf
there are forms you can get from the steward or show office for the evaluation of the show and the officials. Here is a link to one of them
You should make an effort at every show to tell the good and the not so good
other than than, only by arranging a private meeting with the judge can you get the specific info you need. Approach it kindly and with a genuine desire to understand and you will likely get what you need
If you are ever questioning a judge’s placings, remember the cardinal rule:
“If the judge didn’t see it, it didn’t happen.”
‘Bad’ judging does occur, but more often the perceived inconsistencies or errors that people think they see are due to:
- The judge has different priorities than the spectator does (a pony who adds down a line may do it perfectly, and the judge may prefer that to a horse who guns down the line just to make the correct number of strides).
- If a pony trots in the u/s, it is very possible that the judge did not see it. Even if the judge appears to be looking, he/she may really be looking at a pony nearby and have his focus zero’d in on that other pony.
Not saying that this is what occurred, but these possibilities need to be considered before labeling the judge’s choices as ‘bad’.
Also have to remember Hunters are graded on the curve, not against a set standard. You have to have seen all of every other trip from the same spot as the judge before you can decide it was bad judging or just where the horse ranked compared to the errors others may or may not have made.
Common examples in a good class might be a late change behind or a swap at the base screened by the fence(s). You might see it, judge didn’t, or vice versa. Look at the wide variance of scores sometimes on the same trip from the 3 judges at Pony Finals. Go watch the live streaming and compare your opinion with the announced scores as well as compare the 3 scores.
In lesser competitions, judges are sometimes faced with the best of the worst situation. Nobody was good so they have to pick the safest and least offensive which is strictly opinion with everybody having major faults.
Understand the show evaluation form is now available on the USEF website, go online and fill one out if you think it was actual bad judging. Nobody will know.
[QUOTE=copper1;8262260]
Michael Page used to post his cards! The late Jim Wofford was always happy to discuss his reasons with exhibitors.[/QUOTE]
Jim isn’t a “late” yet.
I would be woefully careful to not put him in the ground yet. He may come back at you with many tales of civil war soldiers who were also interned a bit prematurely.
~Emily
[QUOTE=Xctrygirl;8262672]
Jim isn’t a “late” yet.
I would be woefully careful to not put him in the ground yet. He may come back at you with many tales of civil war soldiers who were also interned a bit prematurely.
~Emily[/QUOTE]
There was another Jim Wofford (not the eventing one we know), and he is unfortunately “late.”
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