capsaicin is:
similar to cayenne pepper, , it increases blood flow,ie., circulation to the area to which it is applied to It is used as a topical arthritis ointment in humans, and horses; it creates a burning sensation, do not get it near your eyes!:no:, or, on sensitive areas:cry:; similar to putting gasoline on horses legs, in (the âold daysâ :mad:) it makes horses super careful to NOT touch a pole:o
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breeder of Mercury!
i doubt very much if the capsaicin is being used for that purpose.
nice to recall the old days, when men were men, and trainers just poled a careless horse. Nowadays, thereâs another technology that works- the boots.
Open fronted boots with elastic and velcro can increase the pressure on the legs and make the horses lots more careful. So, itâs not so much about making them sensitized as it is whether or not the horse has the scope, or it gets the ride.
so more likely, it was on the horses backs or haunches as a balm for the five or six rounds of jumping in a week over 1.60 courses.
as for those who say itâs wrong for the horses to incur any pain- hey, they are athletes. Ever read about âtrainersâ of pro and college athletes? They administer rest ice compression and elevation, therapeutic massage approaches, and yes, topical and oral medications.
The difference: we ask an athlete if he or she can go on. And they make a choice. With a horse we do the next best thing; we get an impartial jury of vets to watch all these athletes jog. if they limp theyâre out, whether they limp a little or a lot, and whether they can warm up out of it and âwantâ to go.
Thereâs a lot of protection built in, and an understandable desire on the part of riders and grooms to make their horses comfortable. And if youâve looked at labels, particularly of imported products, itâs pretty hard to tell whatâs in what. And herbal? who knows??
Itâs tragic, particularly for the young Irishman who was having a good week.
No. Itâs not tragic. Itâs stupidity.
Iâm sorry, but this is the Olympics. If you were a rider/groom/trainer/team manager for an Olympic competitor, would you not make damn sureâSCREAMINGLY damn sure that everything that was used on that horse, fed to that horse, came within the breathing space of that horse, was absolutely Kosher?
I just canât fathom that people would be that careless in this day and age. Really.
Iâve wondered before whether weâre getting too much on the âanti-dopingâ wagon, and this may be yet another indication. Without knowing how much of a banned substance (or its metabolite - not all tests test for a banned substance directly) has been found, how are we really to know whether what was found is truly indicative of cheating, or just something thatâs perfectly explainable? And if the latter, is âbeing cleanâ really so very important?
Not that Iâm all about better living through chemistry (at least for horses - I figure adult humans should be able to do whatever they want to their bodies as long as it doesnât hurt anyone else), but câmon - the guyâs using the moral equivalent of BenGay or TigerBalm - is that so terrible?
I canât wait until itâs decided that magnetic therapy is somehow bad, too⌠
[QUOTE=paw;3463886]
Iâve wondered before whether weâre getting too much on the âanti-dopingâ wagon, and this may be yet another indication. Without knowing how much of a banned substance (or its metabolite - not all tests test for a banned substance directly) has been found, how are we really to know whether what was found is truly indicative of cheating, or just something thatâs perfectly explainable? And if the latter, is âbeing cleanâ really so very important?
Not that Iâm all about better living through chemistry (at least for horses - I figure adult humans should be able to do whatever they want to their bodies as long as it doesnât hurt anyone else), but câmon - the guyâs using the moral equivalent of BenGay or TigerBalm - is that so terrible?
I canât wait until itâs decided that magnetic therapy is somehow bad, too⌠:([/QUOTE]
One also wonders if it is this particular item and its effect (essentially a linament), or that it is banned because it might mask something that truly DOES affect performance?
As for Capsaicin, itâs a pretty powerful linament and I remember reading that it was what Sandy Koufax used to use to try to keep going with his extremely painful elbow (and her retired fairly prematurely due to that elbow. Sports medicine wasnât all that good in his day). Powerful deep heating and PAINFUL (at least on human, relatively hairless skin). Itâs very diluted in linaments such as Bigeloil, and I would think it would be counterproductive to use it full strength on a horse unless it was being used as a blister(also a very âold-fashionedâ treatment) - hardly something one would do to a competing horse, but rather one on layup. But what do I knowâŚ
I think it has to do with the concentration of the âdrugâ. All peppers contain capsaicin, which is why itâs possible to test (or so Iâve been warned) positive for drugging if you give your black horse paprika in its feed to keep its coat black. Paprika contains traces of capsaicin. Enough to affect performance? I seriously doubt it. But given the FEIâs penchant for banning anything not naturally occurring in the body (and, as in the case of Ulla Salzgeberâs Rusty, an overabundance of things that do), I can see how it might happen. But I think itâs ridiculous that we, as human athletes, are allowed the odd aspirin or Tylenol, but canât give our horses the same relief.
JMO. 
Capsaicin CAN definitely impact a horseâs performance if rubbed on and used in a certain way on their legs and stifles right before the horse goes to the ring.
I tried using Equiblock on my horseâs stifles early last year - someone had told me itâs great for stimulating blood flow, etc. My horse freaked out about 5 min after I applied just a nickelsâ worth to each stifle - he started bucking like crazy in the cross ties. We washed it off immediately. I asked our vet about the reaction - he said it can produce a performance-enhancing effect in those joints especially in hypersensitive animals. He also said, while a useful liniment when used âcorrectlyâ, that he had seen it increasingly used ringside to âsharpenâ response in front legs, and this use led to it being a banned substance.
He went so far as to say ânever ever use any product containing Capsaicin, including Magic Cushion 2 weeks out from a rated competition.â This advice came from a very prominent vet on the A circuit. My farrier had never heard of Magic Cushion being a problem, but Iâve never taken the risk in using it since!
The FEI rules are very strict for a reason. Mistakes can be made easily with topical ointments, but if you bend it for one person, then why not for the next guy and the next? The rules are the rules in order to make it even playing field across the board regardless.
Where in the world did you hear that? Iâve never known open fronts to make a horse careful, and I canât imagine anyone thinking that pulling velcro tabs tight around a horses leg would do anything other than cripple the horse. What the?
[QUOTE=CoolMeadows;3465432]
Where in the world did you hear that? Iâve never known open fronts to make a horse careful, and I canât imagine anyone thinking that pulling velcro tabs tight around a horses leg would do anything other than cripple the horse. What the?[/QUOTE]
Iâve never heard of that, like you said tightening the boots could do some damage, right?
I know of people who use boots that have inserts velcroâd in WITHOUT the inserts in an effort to discourage them from knocking a rail.
[QUOTE=CoolMeadows;3465432]
Where in the world did you hear that? Iâve never known open fronts to make a horse careful, and I canât imagine anyone thinking that pulling velcro tabs tight around a horses leg would do anything other than cripple the horse. What the?[/QUOTE]
No kidding.
Iâm amused beyond compare that a TWH person has the guts to actually compare the use (intentional or other wise) of Capsasin to soreing. Seriously. Get your tiny pin head out of your ass. Where do you get off comparing widespread, systematic and far from under control daily abuse of such lovely horses to the rare occaison of a person trying to be âunderhandedâ. More to the point, even the asshats that do such things to tune up horses still donât do it on a dailly basis. BL TWHâs have to live in those dreadful shoes 24/7, and those who have been sored have to live with that EVERY FREEKING DAY OF THIER LIVES.
Donât go there. It will not go well.
It is used in liniments, which are NOT generally used to âtune a horse upâ. Sorry to burst that bubble, sweetie.
There are other things that can be misused and therefore are prohibited. But that doesnât mean that thier presence automatically leads to the conclusion that something is rotten in Denmark.
Raise your hand if youâve ever used Absorbine liniment on your horse. Did you do that to help or hurt?? Riiiiight, you used it to rub down your horse. Well, under FEI rules that is PROHIBITED. It contains camphor. Some asshat somewhere used camphor on a horseâs coronet bands to tune them up. nice, right? Well, that means you canât use topicals that contain camphor too. Doesnât mean that you planned on tuning up your horse, but rules are rules. If you are showing in FEI classes, you need to be careful, aware, and educated. Should be simple, right?
Yup this is fairly stupid. The rules are clear and care should be taken to avoid substances that are prohibited. Itâs the riderâs job to be sure what is used on a horse is not in violation of the rules.
[QUOTE=Wellspotted;3463773]
Pony + an inch (does that equal 14.3hh?)-- Thanks for your response. The situation does make more sense now to me, on one level, that is, if people donât know what is banned, or how much, how can they know what not to use? I had thought it was more clear cut, i.e., a published list of banned substances and amounts. As in drinking and driving over the limit vs half a beer at a party, or, one knows cocaine is illegal so donât use it at all.
On the other hand, a horse in pain shouldnât be competing anyway, so I agree with Siswai about that.[/QUOTE]
Yes it does! My first horse was a 14.3 QH mare. She was (still is actually) quite the SS packer at the A shows, big booty and all! 
And yes, itâs really a lot of shades of gray when it comes to the drug rules. And heck, I only know the small amount I do because one day I had a drawn out convo with both the trainer and the vet, and holy cow it could have been discussed all day. And there is a published list, but a) you need to have it on hand, which people donât always do (but should) or b) be sure all ingredients and their amounts are listed in anything you give your horseâand that doesnât always happen, especially with herbal/alternative medicine or foreign stuff.
Now, as for competing in pain, I try and view it as a college athlete. Someone on this thread earlier had a great post about all we do for human athletes and how we transfer that over to horses. When youâre competing at an elite level, there is going to be pain. But itâs for the love of the sport you keep going (hence why 99% horses at those olympics have a ton of heart), and most riders (especially at that high a level) try to protect and help their horses stay comfortable any way they can, and they try to do it legally. Unfortunately, sometimes when you think youâre helping you end up hurting.
It is my personal opinion that it is highly unlikely Lynch was out to hurt his horse or drug his horse illegally. There was too much of a scandal with Cian OâConner back in 2004âthat to me seemed far a more sketchy and potentially intentional illegal drugging than Lynch, and the Irish Iâm betting would have put quite the pressure on Lynch for this time around. Overall, it sucks to be caught. Itâs like youâve always managed to make it through the light on yellow without getting caught by the red light camera, but one day it just so happens you get caught and pay the ticket. Doesnât really matter if you were trying to run the red light 'cause you were impatient or if the person in front of you just stopped in the intersection and you got stuckâyou still have to pay the consequences.
[QUOTE=Siswai;3463602]
Hmmm. Slightly OT, but I think that if itâs true that many horses get sore from competitions like those without the aid of bute or other medications, that is a MAJOR problem. Of course horses randomly can get sore whenever, but I think it is inethical to ask a horse to do something that has a relatively high chance of making them sore/lame/in pain as a result.[/QUOTE]
I donât get why you think itâs âoff topicâ. The whole point of any doping is to increase performance - and this is a discussion of possible performance changing substances being given to horses in a clear âno drugâ alley. As for your point that if horses get sore - they shouldnât be asked to performâŚwell - athletes of any kind get sore. Iâm sure anyone with high performance horses can tell you - the ones that make it to that level are freaks. The ones that can jump like that with nothing and stay sound are the âmichael phelpsâ of the horse world.
The point is that these guys (riders AND their grooms/trainers and support people) are supposed to know and follow FEI rules. If they donât - then they are either stupid - or purposefully trying to push the rules. The rules of FEI competition are clear - NO DRUGS or performance enhancing substances of any kind. Remember the fear of Beezie Madden when Authentic colicked during the Athens games? They were allowed to give him NOTHING for days. Iâm sure it was torture - but if he was going to stay in contention for medal - no drugs. The facts of this case obviously arenât out and itâs possible there was a screening error - or that something else happened - but at first glance, it makes these people (or their support staffs) look like fools. Donât pick the largest athletic games in the world to mess with questionable substances.
[QUOTE=MissIndependence;3466395]
Remember the fear of Beezie Madden when Authentic colicked during the Athens games? They were allowed to give him NOTHING for days. Iâm sure it was torture - but if he was going to stay in contention for medal - no drugs. [/QUOTE]
I donât know anything about the circumstances surrounding that but I will say if my horse ever was in need of medical treatment he would get it and screw the medal; I would withdraw from the competition. No medal is worth risking your horseâs life by denying needed medical attention. That is absurd.
Powerful deep heating and PAINFUL (at least on human, relatively hairless skin)
I used some capsaicin cream on a sore knee once, put on my pants and went walking. Couldnât get home fast enough. It doesnât so much relieve the pain as make you forget about it, because the place you put it that once throbbed is now ON FIRE. I canât imagine what that feels like to a horse.
The thing that makes no sense is that 4 people from different teams with no relationship to each other all of a sudden show up with positive tests for a substance so obscure as this? Did they just invent a new test or tweak the mechanism for the olympics? Because if these horses have been competing and tested all year as the article states and they have been using the same âBen-gayâ like substance and this is the first time itâs tested, then something is obviously amiss with the testing process. And if it actually says on the label âdoes not testâ, you can bet that company will be getting a nasty piece of more than one personâs mind in the near future.
I also cannot even believe that someone would suggest this is in the same league with the systematic abuse of some TWHs :no:
[QUOTE=flshgordon;3466518]
The thing that makes no sense is that 4 people from different teams with no relationship to each other all of a sudden show up with positive tests for a substance so obscure as this? :[/QUOTE]
Note also that as of late this week, only 15 showjumpers had been drug-tested, and of those, one from each medal-winning team. So that is 4/15 that tested positive for capsaicin (from 4 different countries, as you pointed out). The thing is, capsaicin isnât that obscure, and in fact is present in all sorts of things, including lots of food items for human consumption. On another thread I pointed out the possibility of sample or lab contamination, and was of course immediately flamed, and there were denials of âconspiracyâ all around. But I wasnât talking about any kind of conspiracy - rather, just the possibility of accidentally tainted samples, which can and does occur frequently enough for discomfort, and is especially an issue when dealing with highly sensitive test procedures. Now suppose for a moment that the tests WERE screwed up, and we are looking at false positives. As we also already have an admission by Lynch that he used Equi-bock, he probably is going to be SOL regardless, as that product in fact contains a prohibited substance. But I think it is somewhat ironic that in fact the product may not have tested at all. For all we know at this point, the lab tech might have grabbed a spicy potato chip while doing the tests, and voila, 4 positive tests. Have any of the other riders provided statements regarding their test results? Because at this point, if for example all the B samples come back clean or they are otherwise cleared as far as testing goes, it seems that the only one who might end up in trouble is the one guy who came forward and was honest about his use of Equi-block, and that is kind of a perverse result if in fact the others were using similar products that did not really test (but unlike Lynch have kept quiet).
[QUOTE=YankeeLawyer;3466586]
Note also that as of late this week, only 15 showjumpers had been drug-tested, and of those, one from each medal-winning team. So that is 4/15 that tested positive for capsaicin (from 4 different countries, as you pointed out). The thing is, capsaicin isnât that obscure, and in fact is present in all sorts of things, including lots of food items for human consumption. On another thread I pointed out the possibility of sample or lab contamination, and was of course immediately flamed, and there were denials of âconspiracyâ all around. But I wasnât talking about any kind of conspiracy - rather, just the possibility of accidentally tainted samples, which can and does occur frequently enough for discomfort, and is especially an issue when dealing with highly sensitive test procedures. Now suppose for a moment that the tests WERE screwed up, and we are looking at false positives. As we also already have an admission by Lynch that he used Equi-bock, he probably is going to be SOL regardless, as that product in fact contains a prohibited substance. But I think it is somewhat ironic that in fact the product may not have tested at all. For all we know at this point, the lab tech might have grabbed a spicy potato chip while doing the tests, and voila, 4 positive tests. Have any of the other riders provided statements regarding their test results? Because at this point, if for example all the B samples come back clean or they are otherwise cleared as far as testing goes, it seems that the only one who might end up in trouble is the one guy who came forward and was honest about his use of Equi-block, and that is kind of a perverse result if in fact the others were using similar products that did not really test (but unlike Lynch have kept quiet).[/QUOTE]
Yankee Lawyer: If I am the supposed âflamerâ you are referring to, I just cut to the chase and go directly to the root of the problem. If any of my posts have offended you I am truly sorry.
[QUOTE=bluemoonfarms;3466675]
Yankee Lawyer: If I am the supposed âflamerâ you are referring to, I just cut to the chase and go directly to the root of the problem. If any of my posts have offended you I am truly sorry.[/QUOTE]
No, Bluemoon, you didnât offend me. I do take your comments to heart in particular because yours is one of the breeding programs I admire most, so your posts definitely get my attention : ). But I felt bad because I felt like I was offending a bunch of other people, and was frustrated because I think people were missing my point or thought I was defending cheating, which I was not. Ultimately I think we come out the same â either they broke the rules or they didnât, and if they did, they have to face the consequences of that. And, to the extent people did in fact cheat, I am angry with them not just because of the violation itself, but also because it reflects poorly on the sport and reportedly may even jeopardize its place at the Olympics. Not to mention the fact that there were alternates and others who worked hard trying to make the teams who then had to watch this unfold from the sidelines.
I do think the whole issue is really perplexing â I guess because I cannot believe people would be so obtuse as to use any kind of prohibited substance when competing, especially at that level, and especially knowing that they will drug test the competitors. And I do believe in allowing the FEI process to reach its completion before jumping the gun and condemning anyone, and I stand by my statements that it was not helpful for commentators, particularly ones that are otherwise very knowledgeable and respected in our sport, to suggest only the worst case scenario, without pointing out, too, that there might be other reasons and that the investigation is still pending.
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