Jumpers disqualified for doping ???

[canyonoak]

For me, it is really simple:

Capsaicin has been around a long time.

The OC offers a pre-event drug test.
The horses are tested and at least Lynch’s horse is told he is fine.

Lynch carries on doing what he has been doing for over a year.

ANd then-voila! a new test–and he is suspended for doing what he has been doing and being tested for, for over a year.

To the posters who think he used the capsaicin to make his horse burn or whatever–I guess Im naive, because I believe him when he says he used it on the horse’s back; that he used this particular susbtance because it says it does not test and IT DID NOT TEST for over a year–and it helped his horse’s back. As, call me naive again, but I do not think he stuck it on his horse’s back so it would jump him out of the tack before during and after fences.

Sure–he could be putting it on its back all year and then, suddenly, decided to put it on its legs for the burn effect etc etc…but this just seems silly. I do not know one rider at this level who does anything different at a competition of this size and significance.

Why have they not tested all the show jumping horses who at least made it to medal rounds? So they would have a bottom line of comparison?

Just in case, heaven forbid, it should turn out to be a lab problem and a matter of contaminant rather than illegality?

I know the Hong Kong lab is state of the art and in a different league from the dreadful French lab that the FEI so adores and which has obviously botched bunches of tests…but still-- mistakes can and do happen.

[YankeeLawyer]

[QUOTE=canyonoak;3466804]

Sure–he could be putting it on its back all year and then, suddenly, decided to put it on its legs for the burn effect etc etc…but this just seems silly. I do not know one rider at this level who does anything different at a competition of this size and significance.
.[/QUOTE]

Canyonoak, you might offer that opinion up on the capsaicin thread, but I will caution you that you will be sternly informed that you must be sequestered in a hotel room with a “Bible” and completely oblivious to the fact that blistering and similar cheating practices are widespread and that everyone knows someone who does it, but no one does anything because of the SJ code of silence. I must have been competing on a different A circuit, as far as I can tell. ; ).

[canyonoak]

well, Yankeelawyer…I think we have both posted on that thread…I just think this is definiotely a subject where no one is really going to cvhangte anyone else’s mind.

Must add, the other weak link here for me is the GERMAN rider.

They won gold at AThens and had it whisked away in a bitter b itter set-dwon from FEI over Ludger Beerbaum’s ointment. A substance that everyone involved agreed he used ONLY for welfare of the horse and that in NO WAY had anything whatsoever to do with performance enhancement.

ANd yet, they took the medal away.

How anyone on this German team would expose the team to another such situation is totally beyond me.

[jse]

[QUOTE=canyonoak;3466804]
For me, it is really simple:

Capsaicin has been around a long time.

The OC offers a pre-event drug test.
The horses are tested and at least Lynch’s horse is told he is fine.

Lynch carries on doing what he has been doing for over a year.

ANd then-voila! a new test–and he is suspended for doing what he has been doing and being tested for, for over a year.

To the posters who think he used the capsaicin to make his horse burn or whatever–I guess Im naive, because I believe him when he says he used it on the horse’s back; that he used this particular susbtance because it says it does not test and IT DID NOT TEST for over a year–and it helped his horse’s back. As, call me naive again, but I do not think he stuck it on his horse’s back so it would jump him out of the tack before during and after fences.

Sure–he could be putting it on its back all year and then, suddenly, decided to put it on its legs for the burn effect etc etc…but this just seems silly. I do not know one rider at this level who does anything different at a competition of this size and significance.

Why have they not tested all the show jumping horses who at least made it to medal rounds? So they would have a bottom line of comparison?

Just in case, heaven forbid, it should turn out to be a lab problem and a matter of contaminant rather than illegality?

I know the Hong Kong lab is state of the art and in a different league from the dreadful French lab that the FEI so adores and which has obviously botched bunches of tests…but still-- mistakes can and do happen.[/QUOTE]

Lynch is going to be wrong whether the tests come back negative or positive. He used the product, which clearly contains the substance…whether it said it would not test or not. Even though he states that he was using it to make his horse more comfortable. It’s still against the rules to use Capsaicin while competing under FEI.
As for the others. Who knows? We’ll all find out sooner or later.

I’m gonna tell you right now based on conversations with people who have been very involved working in the jumper world that the method of burning is quite common and the more and more I discuss, the more and more I feel like it’s something that goes on a lot more than anyone thinks it does.

I was super naive before the conversation even came up, I wouldn’t have ever thought that people would do this to the horses. For one, I can’t see how it works. For two, I couldn’t consciously put a horse in pain for my own advances. But from what I now know…you would all be surprised. That’s all I’m gonna say. I’m not in any way saying that these Olympians were banned because they were doing this to their horses…but I just want people to know that it does go on, and maybe more often that we would like to believe it does.

[FrenchFrytheEqHorse]

[QUOTE=Pony+ an inch;3466308]
Yes it does! My first horse was a 14.3 QH mare. She was (still is actually) quite the SS packer at the A shows, big booty and all!

And yes, it’s really a lot of shades of gray when it comes to the drug rules. And heck, I only know the small amount I do because one day I had a drawn out convo with both the trainer and the vet, and holy cow it could have been discussed all day. And there is a published list, but a) you need to have it on hand, which people don’t always do (but should) or b) be sure all ingredients and their amounts are listed in anything you give your horse–and that doesn’t always happen, especially with herbal/alternative medicine or foreign stuff.

Now, as for competing in pain, I try and view it as a college athlete. Someone on this thread earlier had a great post about all we do for human athletes and how we transfer that over to horses. When you’re competing at an elite level, there is going to be pain. But it’s for the love of the sport you keep going (hence why 99% horses at those olympics have a ton of heart), and most riders (especially at that high a level) try to protect and help their horses stay comfortable any way they can, and they try to do it legally. Unfortunately, sometimes when you think you’re helping you end up hurting.

It is my personal opinion that it is highly unlikely Lynch was out to hurt his horse or drug his horse illegally. There was too much of a scandal with Cian O’Conner back in 2004–that to me seemed far a more sketchy and potentially intentional illegal drugging than Lynch, and the Irish I’m betting would have put quite the pressure on Lynch for this time around. Overall, it sucks to be caught. It’s like you’ve always managed to make it through the light on yellow without getting caught by the red light camera, but one day it just so happens you get caught and pay the ticket. Doesn’t really matter if you were trying to run the red light 'cause you were impatient or if the person in front of you just stopped in the intersection and you got stuck–you still have to pay the consequences.[/QUOTE]
Remember, Pony+, that we are talking about FEI competition, not USEF governed stuff. This means that per FEI rules, all foreign substances are illegal, and unnatural levels of naturally occuring substances are also grounds for punishment.
Unreasonable as this rule may be, as seasoned competitors in FEI sanctioned competitions, every single one of the individuals being set down should have known using anything with a banned substance in it would cause problems, liniments or not. To me, it doesn’t much matter whether the product was used to rub a horse down, or to produce hypersensitivity- it was used of a banned substance.
FWIW, I just asked my boyfriend (who’s an M.D.) what kind of human products contain Capsaicin. The biggest thing is the IcyHot patches- I had one on my shoulders the other day, and while it did get a bit warm, there was definate theraputic relief present, and my muscles felt much better after a few hours. Not to say that there are not individuals who are hypersensitive to Capsaicin, it’s just not as strong as a lot of people here have made it out to be. Especially not in its liniment form.

[Pat]

I think this stuff reacts differently for individuals. I’ve tried it once. Had a sore back and had the other half start putting some on. DEAR GOD!!! I ran for the shower to wash that stuff off!!! Not only did it not help, I was desparate to get it off. But the stuff is still used so I’m guessing that it effects other people less strongly.

Banned is banned. Read the rules, read the labels, DONT USE the stuff with banned substances in them. Not all that hard, really.

Maybe I’m a dreamer, but I’ll go out on a limb and say that the product was used with the most earnest desire to soothe strained muscles. But it’s still illegal. Rules are for everybody and if a governing body starts interpreting such CLEAR no-tolerance rules to fit individuals, well, then the whole thing falls apart.

For those saying that no horse should be showing ‘in pain’, take off the rose colored glasses. There’s a difference between pain and lame, and you know it. You can be tired, sore, thirsty, hungry. You can get a nice rub down, a nice dinner and drinks, and a good night’s sleep and be just fine and ready to go in the AM. Where you lame?? NO. And these horses are closely watched and there are soundness checks. If they are lame, they don’t go. period.

Oh, and BTW, there’s no amount of that Caspisn crap to make a lame horse sound, so just get that idea out of your head. Maybe a boatload of Dormosedan or Torbogesic, but not hot pepper cream. The stuff isn’t performance enhancing, it’s illegal because the FEI is covering all bases including it’s butt.

[gottagrey]

I just Googled "Equi-Block and below is from the Manufacturer’s Label -

It clearly states Will not test positive
and states it contains 0.025% Capsiacin

Now call me stupid, call me naive, whatever, but I’m thinking 0.025% would not exactly be performance enhancing amounts. I am with the crowd that believes the FEI drug testing is getting a little out of hand. The problem w/ some of the drug testing is its now so sensitive it is no wonder there are many positive tests. There have been some instances where a rider got a positive test for a medication his horse had over a month prior to competition - they followed the protocols for the medication but got nailed anyway because there were trace amounts left in the horse’s system.

I am not so naive to think that certain people would not stoop so low as to do crazy things to their horses to supposedly enhance their horse’s performance, but I will say that to state or imply that people whose horses test positive are all of a sudden guilty of purposefully doping to enhance performance might not be fair or the case at all.

I think before anyone is too harsh to judge - please remember there are so many banned substances - a positive test does not necessarily = abuse, cheating etc.

However the FEI states pretty clearly that basically nothing is allowed - topically or orally so if one is going to compete at that level evidently they have to be more than diligent.

And thanks to this thread, I now know that I best keep certain human snack foods (I.e. Doritos) away from my horse as he too could test positive for Capsaicin. He loves Doritos.

Equi-Block™
EquiFlite Technologies Inc
Description:
Racehorse Strength topical pain reliever with Capsaicin. Will not test positive.

Indications:
For the temporary care of rheumatoid arthritis, osteoarthritis, neuralgias, simple backache, strains and sprains of ligaments and tendons, curb and splints in horses.

Ingredients:
Active Ingredient: Capsaicin (0.025%)
Other Ingredients: Deionized Water, Chamomile Extract, Carbomer 940, Polysorbate 20, Triethanolamine, Propyl Gallate, Methylparaben, Imidazolidinyl Urea, Propylparaben, Fragrance.
This product contains natural products and is subject to color change over time.

[lucretia]

i do feel the comment on this forum has generally been much more educated than some other forums i have visited and the point above is a good one. are there noth threshold levels for positive tests anymore? if its zero tolerance with a substance as common as capaicin then ther will be alot more positives in the future of people entirely innocent of any thought of cheating.
also as another person has said on here i cnnot get past the fact that four separate horses form four different nations out of the small percentage tested on this occasion were positive? for the same substance? i am not buying it.
and as the substace in question is a really recent addition to the list and as the FEI do not seem to send screaming emails to the national federations when they change something i reckon its easy to make a mistake. ask phillip dutton. he has been using those boots for two years i hear, i know many people who also use similar and i havent seen them being weighed anywhere this season ( i go to a far few FEI shows eventing and showjumping by the way) and if i had ten dollars for everyone who has expressed amazemaent at hearing there even was a rule for their weight, i wouldnt be working for the next few months… so they certainly didnt make a big deal of that rule change.

[Pat]

@gottagrey;3468207

I just Googled "Equi-Block and below is from the Manufacturer’s Label -

It clearly states Will not test positive
and interestingly states it contains 0.025% Capsiacin

Ok, but just because a MANUFACTURER’S label says does not test doesn’t make it true!! Particularly in light of the fact that a banned substance is clearly listed in the label.

Plus, I’m pretty sure it’s referring to USEF rules not FEI. Pretty big difference there, as plenty of things are done under USEF rules that are flatly illegal for FEI.

Then again, maybe not. You can’t use Black as Knight because of the paprika, right?

While I doubt that a Dorito or two wouldn’t test, it’s still the responsibility of the humans to keep things on the up and up.

Do ya’ll remember the blow up over some kind of “herbal tonic” type thing that a bunch of random BNT’s got in trouble for??? Yeah, OK, I got the skinny on that thing the other day. It didn’t have any banned substances in it when the importer (a BNT themselves) first got the stuff. They even had it tested here, in the beginning. People wanted it, so they started sellling it. Apparently there was shoddy quality control at the other end, and a certain very, very banned substance (for good reason) was getting mixed in!! And nobody knew. ANd the label still said does not test. And a WHOLE BUNCH of unrelated people in different places got in plenty of trouble over it.

Don’t rely on the guy trying to make a buck off of ya to keep ya out of trouble. I point the finger at the manufacturer in that case, not the importer. Plus, as Lucretia pointed out, this is a recent addition to the list. The manufacturer cannot be relied upon to change labels quickly and they are not going to recall old jars just to change a label. Unless there’s a safety recall, those old “Does not test” labels will still be out there.

But just the words, “Does not test” irratates me. That alone implies that there is something dicey there. Like they were tweeking with ingredient levels so that they pass under a threshold. Again, don’t rely on somebody else to keep your butt out of a sling. If there’s a banned substance in there, then just don’t use it. There are other ways to alleviate pain and swelling. Ice, whirlpools, heck a nice plain alcohol rub and standing wraps work just fine.

[Pat]

I just read gottagrey’s post again. I’m now thinking that Does Not Test label applies to RACE HORSES. It calls the stuff “race horse strength”. They just printed Does not Test to get people to buy it.

There, again, RACE HORSES vs. USEF vs. FEI. Three differnt organizations, three sets of rules. And race rules vary by state and TYPE of race horse!

[CoolMeadows]

@Pat;3468414

I just read gottagrey’s post again. I’m now thinking that Does Not Test label applies to RACE HORSES. It calls the stuff “race horse strength”. They just printed Does not Test to get people to buy it.

There, again, RACE HORSES vs. USEF vs. FEI. Three differnt organizations, three sets of rules. And race rules vary by state and TYPE of race horse!

I think you’re right Pat… is Capsaicin banned for racehorses? Or do they just not test for it?

[justridin]

[QUOTE=CoolMeadows;3465432]
Where in the world did you hear that? I’ve never known open fronts to make a horse careful, and I can’t imagine anyone thinking that pulling velcro tabs tight around a horses leg would do anything other than cripple the horse. What the?[/QUOTE]

Not if you use the extra long ones, and they are brand new, and put on just before they go in the ring. but, they won’t give one more scope, or make up for a bad ride…

and they can make a horse so careful it won’t jump. I always watch the schooling area, and someone told me about that a few years ago.

I’m more with the crowd that says zero tolerance is pretty extreme as far as liniments are concerned and not sure how you police it effectively…

[Pat]

@justridin';3468532

I’m more with the crowd that says zero tolerance is pretty extreme as far as liniments are concerned and not sure how you police it effectively…

The “problem” isn’t liniments. The “problem” is that some ingredients found in some liniments can be used on thier OWN for nefarious reasons. (capasin on “shins” and camphor on coronet bands will sting like a SOB if the horse has a rub) Since the testing can’t determine WHERE, HOW or WHY the product was used, they therefore banned the substance.

I don’t mind people ‘lookin’ to get a rub’ in the warm up ring. I do mind people trying to make that rub hurt so bad the horse is terrified to hit a jump. Extreme or not, I’m fine with rules to make that kind of thing harder to do.

Dunno for sure about the race rules. And it could vary by state any way.

[Foxtrot_s]

WADA has a list of name brand products it allows athletes to use.
Silken Lauman mistakenly bought Benelyn DM from a pharmacy when she should have only used Benelyn. She was cleared of all infractions, but it could have been devastating for her career and post-athletic career. If there was a list of name-brand products for horses, caretakers would not have to run the risk of using a banned substance by mistake, be it creams, supplements, etc. But then what would an armchair know-nothing like me know!! I’m one who believes a certain level should be acceptable for the welfare of the
horse, since a zero tolerance policy is always going to produce some problems.

[Jumphigh83]

Since unfortunately there has been a doping issue for some riders in international competition, have the drug screens for them come back yet or will we all be surprised with an eleventh hour change in the medaling a la the last Olympics? What a mess. Either something is going on with the use of “nutraceuticals/herbals” or the testing is too sensitive or there are a lot of arrogant individuals who perceive themselves as above the rules. Hmmmmm? Not sure what to think.

[Mardi]

[QUOTE=jse;3466915]

I’m gonna tell you right now based on conversations with people who have been very involved working in the jumper world that the method of burning is quite common and the more and more I discuss, the more and more I feel like it’s something that goes on a lot more than anyone thinks it does.
([/QUOTE]

Will the day come when USEF has stewards checking for soring/burning before jumpers enter the ring ?

[jse]

[QUOTE=Mardi;3468766]
Will the day come when USEF has stewards checking for soring/burning before jumpers enter the ring ?[/QUOTE]

It’s a possibility! I’m not so sure it’s a common thing in the competition ring, I think they mainly use it while schooling.
I was told that once the horse is finished being ridden, they rinse with yogurt…which helps relieve the burning and prevent blistering. So it’s easily covered up.

[Mardi]

Do USEF stewards check bits and/or other equipment before/after a jumper competes ?

In dressage the bits are checked at the out gate after an upper level test.

[CoolMeadows]

jse, could you PM me about who you’re getting this info from? I still don’t get the putting open fronts on really tight and I’m hoping you’re being terribly misinformed… just curious about what crowd you’re hanging with.

I’ve never seen it in any barn I was with or when visiting other barns. The worst I saw was an eventer-turned-jumper who had 4’ X 4’s, tack rails and bell boots with ball bearings in the coronet band all over the barn. Her horses all ended up as dirty stoppers, and neurotic rides (I had one after he lost it in the ring and shutdown with her… took a lot of fixing but he came back to be a nice 4’6 horse).

[bluemoonfarms]

[QUOTE=Pat;3467937]
I think this stuff reacts differently for individuals. I’ve tried it once. Had a sore back and had the other half start putting some on. DEAR GOD!!! I ran for the shower to wash that stuff off!!! Not only did it not help, I was desparate to get it off. But the stuff is still used so I’m guessing that it effects other people less strongly.

Banned is banned. Read the rules, read the labels, DONT USE the stuff with banned substances in them. Not all that hard, really.

Maybe I’m a dreamer, but I’ll go out on a limb and say that the product was used with the most earnest desire to soothe strained muscles. But it’s still illegal. Rules are for everybody and if a governing body starts interpreting such CLEAR no-tolerance rules to fit individuals, well, then the whole thing falls apart.

For those saying that no horse should be showing ‘in pain’, take off the rose colored glasses. There’s a difference between pain and lame, and you know it. You can be tired, sore, thirsty, hungry. You can get a nice rub down, a nice dinner and drinks, and a good night’s sleep and be just fine and ready to go in the AM. Where you lame?? NO. And these horses are closely watched and there are soundness checks. If they are lame, they don’t go. period.

Oh, and BTW, there’s no amount of that Caspisn crap to make a lame horse sound, so just get that idea out of your head. Maybe a boatload of Dormosedan or Torbogesic, but not hot pepper cream. The stuff isn’t performance enhancing, it’s illegal because the FEI is covering all bases including it’s butt.[/QUOTE]

Pat - I totally agree with you.

[QUOTE=Pat;3468392]
Do ya’ll remember the blow up over some kind of “herbal tonic” type thing that a bunch of random BNT’s got in trouble for??? Yeah, OK, I got the skinny on that thing the other day. It didn’t have any banned substances in it when the importer (a BNT themselves) first got the stuff. They even had it tested here, in the beginning. People wanted it, so they started sellling it. Apparently there was shoddy quality control at the other end, and a certain very, very banned substance (for good reason) was getting mixed in!! And nobody knew. ANd the label still said does not test. And a WHOLE BUNCH of unrelated people in different places got in plenty of trouble over it[/QUOTE]

I had completely forgotten about this one and it brings up a whole lot of other concerns over what the manufacturers are actually putting in these products.