Jumpers disqualified for doping ???

[CoolMeadows]

OK, OK I can’t take it anymore!! Between the one poster acting as though Bute and Banamine are worlds apart as far as effectiveness, and someone saying that putting new boots on reallllly tight will make a horse so careful it won’t jump (it’s not being careful, it’s breaking down - lame horses stop!), and the dorm and torb being named as drugs to mask lamenesses (are they not sedatives??), my head’s going to pop off.

It feels like I’m stuck in some alternate universe thread… or maybe my knowledge of drugs and anatomy is all wrong. Certainly could be!

[YankeeLawyer]

[QUOTE=Pat;3467937]

Oh, and BTW, there’s no amount of that Caspisn crap to make a lame horse sound, so just get that idea out of your head. Maybe a boatload of Dormosedan or Torbogesic, but not hot pepper cream. The stuff isn’t performance enhancing, it’s illegal because the FEI is covering all bases including it’s butt.[/QUOTE]

I am sorry, but that made me laugh. Dormosedan? I would like to see someone try to use any amount of that stuff to mask lameness, and if you were to use anything approaching a boatload you would have a dead horse. You do know that it is a fairly potent tranquilizer, don’t you (and btw one accidental injection of that to a human will stop the heart immediately). Small doses sedate them and if you accidentally give too much the horse will barely be able to stand.

[YankeeLawyer]

[QUOTE=CoolMeadows;3469252]
OK, OK I can’t take it anymore!! Between the one poster acting as though Bute and Banamine are worlds apart as far as effectiveness, and someone saying that putting new boots on reallllly tight will make a horse so careful it won’t jump (it’s not being careful, it’s breaking down - lame horses stop!), and the dorm and torb being named as drugs to mask lamenesses (are they not sedatives??), my head’s going to pop off.

It feels like I’m stuck in some alternate universe thread… or maybe my knowledge of drugs and anatomy is all wrong. Certainly could be![/QUOTE]

CoolMeadows, I think we are both in the same alternative universe ; ).

[Ruby_G_Weber]

This is an age old conundrum.

The cheaters will always try - and usually do for a period of time - stay one step ahead of the authorities, the authorities catch on, ban the use of whatever and the cycle continues. It occurs to me that some of the horse which were presented for “voluntary” testing prior to the start of the Games may have been attempting to determine if certain topicals, etc. were being detected.

I’m afraid, however, just like USEF, the FEI has backed itself into a corner. They proved after Athens they are not going to ease their stance on banned substance, even though it was one of their “darlings” who was “guilty” and caused his team to loose it’s Gold medal. (Personally, in that case I don’t believe for a minute the culprit was an ointment. I do believe Goldfever had some joint or joints injected prior to Athens and the steriod used along with the HA was what was detected. )

No question Cian O’Conner flat out cheated.

Keeping these elite performance horses sound and at the top of their game for important competitions is no easy task. No matter how much massage, chiropractic, deep muscle stimulation, magnetic therapy, Game Ready along with the normal icing and bandaging it would greatly benefit the horse if a therapuetic dose of anti inflammitory were permitted.

If these labs’ tests are so sensitive they should be capable of determining what amount of a substance is therapeutic and what amount is abusive.

At this point I believe the FEI is just as guilty of cruelty as those who abuse capsaicin and the like.

[jse]

[QUOTE=YankeeLawyer;3469281]
I am sorry, but that made me laugh. Dormosedan? I would like to see someone try to use any amount of that stuff to mask lameness, and if you were to use anything approaching a boatload you would have a dead horse. You do know that it is a fairly potent tranquilizer, don’t you (and btw one accidental injection of that to a human will stop the heart immediately). Small doses sedate them and if you accidentally give to much the horse will barely be able to stand.[/QUOTE]

Yeeeeah I totally missed this one.
Dormosedan? Masking lameness? How about masking consciousness? lol
If you’d like for either you and/or your horse to be seriously injured, I wouldn’t ever attempt this.

[CoolMeadows]

Funny dorm story… ok not funny at all, terrifying and ridiculous story about dorm. I worked very briefly for a nefarious (word du jour) GP rider who I discovered had some serious addiction problems. This person had a rankish GP horse who had to have 4 cc’s of Ace for vetwork. The vet was scheduled one morning and trainer-in-a-stupor administered 4 cc’s of dorm and dropped GP horse in the aisle. Luckily he was fine after an extended nap. Did I mention I worked very briefly for that person?

[jse]

[QUOTE=CoolMeadows;3469411]
Funny dorm story… ok not funny at all, terrifying and ridiculous story about dorm. I worked very briefly for a nefarious (word du jour) GP rider who I discovered had some serious addiction problems. This person had a rankish GP horse who had to have 4 cc’s of Ace for vetwork. The vet was scheduled one morning and trainer-in-a-stupor administered 4 cc’s of dorm and dropped GP horse in the aisle. Luckily he was fine after an extended nap. Did I mention I worked very briefly for that person?[/QUOTE]

4cc’s!??! Oh my goodness!
We seldom use it when body clipping difficult horses but it’s never more than like half a cc or maybe 1cc. Even that knocks them out cold!
I worked with a mare who was extremely difficult for the farrier and we gave her a little dormosedan and she STILL fought! She was a feisty little booger!

[CoolMeadows]

Yeah, lucky pony to live right?? How can you be so trashed at 8 a.m. that you can’t read the labels on a bottle? GP horse wasn’t all that bad really, she was just never sober enough to hang onto him. How she rode him around I’ll never know. It was an interesting 6 weeks, I can’t deny that!

[Pat]

Well, darlings, got news for ya. Copied from the manufacturer’s web site:

DORMOSEDAN®
(detomidine hydrochloride)
Sterile Solution

Description

DORMOSEDAN® (detomidine hydrochloride) is a nonnarcotic, synthetic (alpha-2 adrenoreceptor agonist) equine sedative/analgesic that contains the active ingredient detomidine hydrochloride. DORMOSEDAN can be used safely for a variety of minor surgical and diagnostic procedures.

Approved Uses

DORMOSEDAN is approved for:

• Use as a sedative and analgesic to facilitate minor surgical and diagnostic procedures in mature horses and yearlings.
• Use in calming fractious horses, [U][B]providing relief from abdominal pain[/B][/U], and facilitating bronchoscopy, bronchoalveolar lavage, nasogastric intubation, nonreproductive rectal palpations, suturing of skin lacerations, and castrations.
• Additionally, an approved, local infiltration anesthetic is indicated for castration.

[B][SIZE=4]Key Features[/SIZE][/B]

• Produces nonnarcotic, reliable, dose-dependent sedation and [B][U]analgesia[/U][/B]
• Flexible dosing allows the veterinarian to regulate the depth and length of sedation and [B][U]analgesia[/U][/B]
• Allows equine chemical restraint and pain relief to simplify minor surgical and diagnostic procedures, such as suturing and intubation
• Uses include calming fractious horses, [B][U]relieving abdominal pain[/U][/B], and facilitating bronchoscopy
• May be administered through intravenous or intramuscular methods
• Provides a wide margin of safety

[B][SIZE=4]Packaging[/SIZE][/B]

5- and 20-mL multidose vials

Dosage and Administration

• [B]For Sedation[/B]: Administer DORMOSEDAN IV or IM at the rates of 20 or 40 mcg detomidine hydrochloride per kg of body weight (0.2 or 0.4 mL of DORMOSEDAN per 100 kg or 220 lb), depending on the depth and duration of sedation required. Onset of sedative effects should be reached within 2–4 minutes after IV administration and 3–5 minutes after IM administration. Twenty mcg/kg will provide 30–90 minutes of sedation, and 40 mcg/kg will provide approximately 90 minutes to 2 hours of sedation.
• [U][B]For Analgesia[/B]:[/U] Administer DORMOSEDAN IV at the rates of 20 or 40 mcg detomidine hydrochloride per kg of body weight (0.2 or 0.4 mL of DORMOSEDAN per 100 kg or 220 lb), depending on the depth and duration of analgesia required. Twenty mcg/kg will usually begin to take effect in 2–4 minutes and provide 30–45 minutes of analgesia. The 40 mcg/kg dose will also begin to take effect in 2–4 minutes and provide 45–75 minutes of analgesia.
• [B]For Both Sedation and[/B] [B][U]Analgesia[/U][/B]: Administer DORMOSEDAN IV at the rates of 20 or 40 mcg detomidine hydrochloride per kg of body weight (0.2 or 0.4 mL of DORMOSEDAN per 100 kg or 220 lb), depending on the depth and duration of sedation and analgesia required.
• [B]Before and after injection, the animal should be allowed to rest quietly.[/B]

[Pat]

Sorry about all the extra code on the above. When ever I copy and paste that happens. Can’t figure out why and it’s a PITA to fix.

I never said that Dorm is a good choice. I just said it can relieve pain. It was one of the things that came quickly to mind that I knew to do so. So, there, smart arses, it is NOT just a sedative. Try reading the WHOLE label, not just the dosing instructions.

[Pat]

@CoolMeadows;3469252

and the dorm and torb being named as drugs to mask lamenesses (are they not sedatives??)

WOW

Torbugesic, as in ANALGESIC. Sheesh.

Torbugesic (Butorphanol Tartrate) is a synthetic narcotic simlilar chemically to Morphine. Like Morphine it is an analgesic.

Come on, guys, read those bits of paper that the bottles are packaged with. They really aren’t that hard to discypher. I got a C in Chemistry and I understand them!

Yes, there are drugs that are more likely to be used than Dorm, but sorry, Torbugesic is certainly a pain masking drug.

[YankeeLawyer]

[QUOTE=Pat;3469706]

I never said that Dorm is a good choice. I just said it can relieve pain. It was one of the things that came quickly to mind that I knew to do so. So, there, smart arses, it is NOT just a sedative. Try reading the WHOLE label, not just the dosing instructions.[/QUOTE]

This is what you said:

Oh, and BTW, there’s no amount of that Caspisn crap to make a lame horse sound, so just get that idea out of your head. Maybe a boatload of Dormosedan or Torbogesic, but not hot pepper cream.

Whatever its pain-relieving properties might be, you can’t separate those out from the fact it knocks horses flat on their butts. Also, I wonder if it actually relieves pain or simply changes the perception of pain by knocking them out – there is a difference. But in any event, if you are going to essentially shout down someone else about their supposed views of one substance (capsaicin), then at least get your meds straight. If you had any familiarity with Dormosedan and its properties, it would have been perhaps the last thing that would come to mind as an example of masking lameness (though I suppose if one were to shoot a horse dead it might be hard to discern whether it was lame also). The idea that anyone would administer Dorm and even attempt to ride the animal is scary. But there is no dose that you could give of dorm to make a lame horse appear sound.

[CoolMeadows]

Oh lighten up! Have you ever seen a horse on those drugs? LMAO, I can just see someone shooting a lame one up with the amount of Dorm it recommends to act as analgesic (for abdominal pain) and trying to pass it off as sound. You’d have every vet on the grounds running for your suddenly acutely neurological horse!

Hey I don’t want to get into a pissing match, but in my experience both Torb and Dorm have been used primarily for their sedative properties. The fact that they have an analgesic effect as well has always been secondary in the cases I’ve seen them used. It would be hard to tell if a horse was sound or not through the staggering.

[MHM]

@Mardi;3469180

Do USEF stewards check bits and/or other equipment before/after a jumper competes ?

In dressage the bits are checked at the out gate after an upper level test.

At the Olympics and other top level competitions, the jumpers have a boot check as they come out of the ring. The horses go directly from the out gate to a rubber mat, and all boots are removed from the horse in front of a steward to make sure there are no foreign objects in them. It’s done on a mat so they can see if anything falls out, and the mat is swept clean after each horse.

[gottagrey]

Rub G Weber states that Cian O’Connor flat out cheated - I’m either missing something but I seem to recall that his statement and the statement of his vet was pretty much the horse had been given a sedative when they were treating him w/ swim therapy which was more than a month prior to the Olympics.

ut after a 12-hour hearing in Zurich, Switzerland on Sunday, a judicial committee of the Federation Equestre Internationale (FEI) said it was satisfied O’Connor had not been involved in a deliberate attempt to affect the performance of the horse.

From CNN.Com International March 28, 2005
[I] O’Connor has always denied cheating, insisting the drugs – which are used as sedatives and anti-psychotic medication in humans – were given to the horse by his vet for therapeutic reasons.

He had told the FEI the substances were used as a mild sedative during hydrotherapy treatment on a minor fetlock injury.

“I am delighted that the judicial committee has accepted and affirmed that I was not involved in any deliberate attempt to affect the performance of my horse Waterford Crystal – as I have always maintained,” said O’Connor.

"While I am disappointed that a technical infraction has resulted in the loss of the gold medal for Ireland, I wish to re-emphasise again that neither I nor my vet James Sheeran have done anything wrong.[/I]

Also - I only Google Equi-Block as that was the ointment one of the riders said they had used. On the particular website I located it on its claim to fame was for race horses. Also. Capsaicin is also listed on the banned substances for USEF - so no more Doritos etc for my horse. Actually my trainer and I discussed this today - she seemed surprised about the Capsaicin and had not heard of it being used for performance. She did also say that she keeps close tabs on what her clients give their horses at shows - no sharing sodas, no horse/human treats, nada.

As one of the other posters here mentioned - it is a banned substance so sadly for some of those riders they should have known better. Again, I would like to think that some of these riders did have good intentions but were not diligent in following the banned substances list - but w/ 4 of them testing it might seem more like the latest/greatest performance “edge”.

[Pat]

Ok, so sue me. I didn’t pick the right drug fast enough. GEEZUS CHRIST lady. You kill me.

Yes, I’m fairly familiar with the stuff. Yes, actually you can adjust a dose of Dorm and have a horse still rideable. it’s a pretty low dose.

But since I don’t go around drugging my horses into rideable soundness and I utterly refuse to work for those who do, I’m not all that well versed in making lame horses sound enough to ride. Sorry. I’m not that kind of girl.

Who am I shouting down about Capsaicin? Really, I missd that.

[MHM]

@CoolMeadows;3469740

You’d have every vet on the grounds running for your suddenly acutely neurological horse!

Hey I don’t want to get into a pissing match, but in my experience both Torb and Dorm have been used primarily for their sedative properties. The fact that they have an analgesic effect as well has always been secondary in the cases I’ve seen them used. It would be hard to tell if a horse was sound or not through the staggering.

“Doctor, doctor, come quick, he’s so lame he can’t walk!”

Seriously, when I’ve used those drugs to body clip a really bad one, they can barely stand, let alone walk, never mind trot. If you can evaluate lameness at a halt, maybe it could make a difference to their soundness.

[CoolMeadows]

@Pat;3469751

Ok, so sue me. I didn’t pick the right drug fast enough. GEEZUS CHRIST lady. You kill me.

Yes, I’m fairly familiar with the stuff. Yes, actually you can adjust a dose of Dorm and have a horse still rideable. it’s a pretty low dose.

But since I don’t go around drugging my horses into rideable soundness and I utterly refuse to work for those who do, I’m not all that well versed in making lame horses sound enough to ride. Sorry. I’m not that kind of girl.

Who am I shouting down about Capsaicin? Really, I missd that.

Ok I just.can’t.resist. How do you know you can ride a horse on Dorm? You don’t drug so you must have seen it? I’ve been around a few catastrophic injuries and pre-op situations (vet tech as a kid every summer) and after having my own you-can’t-clip-me mare who dragged her head on the ground with 0.5 cc of Dorm, I just can’t imagine anyone attempting to ride on it. That’s insane.

[YankeeLawyer]

[QUOTE=Pat;3469751]
Ok, so sue me. I didn’t pick the right drug fast enough. GEEZUS CHRIST lady. You kill me.

Yes, I’m fairly familiar with the stuff. Yes, actually you can adjust a dose of Dorm and have a horse still rideable. it’s a pretty low dose.

But since I don’t go around drugging my horses into rideable soundness and I utterly refuse to work for those who do, I’m not all that well versed in making lame horses sound enough to ride. Sorry. I’m not that kind of girl.

Who am I shouting down about Capsaicin? Really, I missd that.[/QUOTE]

I am not the one here calling people names. And I don’t drug my horses either or otherwise cheat, so to the extent that you are implying that those of us who know the effects of various medications do that, well, you can shove it.

[Pat]

No need to be nasty. Just because I don’t cheat and make my horses sound if they are not, doesn’t mean I’ve never used medications.

As prescribed by a vet, for a horse that was coming back into work after a long run of stall rest. The horse was a known nut bucket and was in no physical position to jump about and be a jerk. He was, however, ready for light exercise. About .5 was faaaar too much. .10 was noooot enough. We settled at about .20 to .25. It was enough to keep him in the middle of his feet and enough to keep the feet on the ground instead of 10 feet above.

Wasn’t my horse, wasn’t my idea. I also don’t work for that trainer any more for many reasons, one of which was that he was a freek show himself.