Jumpers disqualified for doping ???

[CoolMeadows]

@YankeeLawyer;3469789

I am not the one here calling people names. And I don’t drug my horses either or otherwise cheat, so the extent that you are implying that those of us who know the effects of various medications do that, well, you can shove it.

I caught that implied thought as well and was hoping she didn’t mean it. Hurts my feelings.

For the record, I don’t drug or cheat either and way back in the day (when did I get so old??) when I had a superstar little horse, he had one bute once the night before a classic late in the year at the suggestion of my trainer. I thought it made him hard in the mouth and never used it again… I was extremely anti-drug and still am pretty unreasonable about drugging. Now he did get massages at shows and wow did he ever jump well after them. He didn’t get pounded, rarely showed more than once a month or as finances allowed but still managed to be Zone champ and 8th in the country. He never had a joint injected or had to go on joint supplements either and now he’s 24, on MSM and still flexes 100%. He’s a little machine and I know they can’t all be like him, but it can be done.

[Pat]

@YankeeLawyer;3469789

I am not the one here calling people names. And I don’t drug my horses either or otherwise cheat, so the extent that you are implying that those of us who know the effects of various medications do that, well, you can shove it.

No, sweetie, YOU can shove it.

READ what I said. All of it. I SAID that people NEED to read the package inserts. I do. Any package insert I can get my hands on, I read. Even the stuff I don’t use. I like to know how these things work. I make a point of trying to understand.

Hence I knew that the drugs mentioned have analgesic properties. Maybe not the best choices to make a horse sound and rideable, but they are analgesics.

When, exactly did I SAY that YOU or anyone else here is cheating?? Really, wow. There’s a leap. If you think I’ve impled that then you need to calm the heck DOWN and get over yourself.

[Pat]

@CoolMeadows;3469807

I caught that implied thought as well and was hoping she didn’t mean it.

For the record, I don’t drug or cheat either and way back in the day (when did I get so old??) when I had a superstar little horse, he had one bute once the night before a classic late in the year at the suggestion of my trainer.

I didn’t. Yankee is jumping, very, very far, to conclusions.

I don’t have any problems with the proper use of legal drugs administered at the legal levels as laid down by the USEF. But we are talking about FEI rules in this instance.

I don’t like Bute all that much because of the higher incidence of gastric issues, but again, I don’t have a problem with it. Particularly in the way you describe, it’s not like you are trying to make a horse appear sound. You’d have to give an awful lot of bute to mask serious pain and that amount would certainly push past the allowed plasma concentration. Typically, in a 1000 pound horse, One gram given 12 hours out will be acceptable if drug tested.

[YankeeLawyer]

[QUOTE=Pat;3469808]
No, sweetie, YOU can shove it.
.[/QUOTE]

For the record, I am not your “sweetie”, your “Darling,” or even your “smart arse.”
Your response, when it was pointed out to you by multiple people that your claims about Dormosedan were incorrect (as far as its ability to mask lameness), was to go on the offensive and call those who disagreed “smart asses” and whatnot. And when further pressed, you retreated to the position of hey, sorry, how would you know anyway as you don’t drug your horses to mask lameness, implying that those of us who are familiar with the drug’s properties do. Obviously, I am not the only one who interpreted your remarks that way. Try re-reading your posts in the context of the discussion.

In any event, none of this has anything to do with what occurred at the Olympics, and does little to further the discussion regarding whether the FEI might be able to more effectively regulate the sport for the greater good of the horses.

[Moderator_1]

OK, hopefully any confusion here has been cleared up, and we can all cool down and return to the main topic of discussion. No shoving of anything required…

Thanks!
Mod 1

[lauriep]

If I am not mistaken, Cian O’Connor was also caught for the same drug (different horse?) at a different time the same year.

[YankeeLawyer]

[QUOTE=lauriep;3470035]
If I am not mistaken, Cian O’Connor was also caught for the same drug (different horse?) at a different time the same year.[/QUOTE]

Well, if true the incident at the Games would be even more incredibly dumb. But, if someone is going to declare he intentionally cheated at the Games, it would be more fair to at least point out that despite that poster’s opinion, the FEI did come to the conclusion he had not acted intentionally. The same poster also made serious allegations about Ludger Beerbaum and Goldfever which, as far as I can tell, are not supported by anything the FEI found or any other publicly-available information.

[Jumphigh83]

[QUOTE=Pat;3469704]
Well, darlings, got news for ya. Copied from the manufacturer’s web site:

DORMOSEDAN®
(detomidine hydrochloride)
Sterile Solution

Description

DORMOSEDAN® (detomidine hydrochloride) is a nonnarcotic, synthetic (alpha-2 adrenoreceptor agonist) equine sedative/analgesic that contains the active ingredient detomidine hydrochloride. DORMOSEDAN can be used safely for a variety of minor surgical and diagnostic procedures.

Approved Uses

DORMOSEDAN is approved for:

• Use as a sedative and analgesic to facilitate minor surgical and diagnostic procedures in mature horses and yearlings.
• Use in calming fractious horses, [U][B]providing relief from abdominal pain[/B][/U], and facilitating bronchoscopy, bronchoalveolar lavage, nasogastric intubation, nonreproductive rectal palpations, suturing of skin lacerations, and castrations.
• Additionally, an approved, local infiltration anesthetic is indicated for castration.

[B][SIZE=4]Key Features[/SIZE][/B]

• Produces nonnarcotic, reliable, dose-dependent sedation and [B][U]analgesia[/U][/B]
• Flexible dosing allows the veterinarian to regulate the depth and length of sedation and [B][U]analgesia[/U][/B]
• Allows equine chemical restraint and pain relief to simplify minor surgical and diagnostic procedures, such as suturing and intubation
• Uses include calming fractious horses, [B][U]relieving abdominal pain[/U][/B], and facilitating bronchoscopy
• May be administered through intravenous or intramuscular methods
• Provides a wide margin of safety

[B][SIZE=4]Packaging[/SIZE][/B]

5- and 20-mL multidose vials

Dosage and Administration

• [B]For Sedation[/B]: Administer DORMOSEDAN IV or IM at the rates of 20 or 40 mcg detomidine hydrochloride per kg of body weight (0.2 or 0.4 mL of DORMOSEDAN per 100 kg or 220 lb), depending on the depth and duration of sedation required. Onset of sedative effects should be reached within 2–4 minutes after IV administration and 3–5 minutes after IM administration. Twenty mcg/kg will provide 30–90 minutes of sedation, and 40 mcg/kg will provide approximately 90 minutes to 2 hours of sedation.
• [U][B]For Analgesia[/B]:[/U] Administer DORMOSEDAN IV at the rates of 20 or 40 mcg detomidine hydrochloride per kg of body weight (0.2 or 0.4 mL of DORMOSEDAN per 100 kg or 220 lb), depending on the depth and duration of analgesia required. Twenty mcg/kg will usually begin to take effect in 2–4 minutes and provide 30–45 minutes of analgesia. The 40 mcg/kg dose will also begin to take effect in 2–4 minutes and provide 45–75 minutes of analgesia.
• [B]For Both Sedation and[/B] [B][U]Analgesia[/U][/B]: Administer DORMOSEDAN IV at the rates of 20 or 40 mcg detomidine hydrochloride per kg of body weight (0.2 or 0.4 mL of DORMOSEDAN per 100 kg or 220 lb), depending on the depth and duration of sedation and analgesia required.
• [B]Before and after injection, the animal should be allowed to rest quietly.[/B]

[/QUOTE]

Sorry but smooth muscle analgesia is not even comparable to striated muscle/joint/tendon/ligament analgesia. Those types of drugs provide smooth muscle analgesia (gut) which is why they are used for colics. Any amount of dorm would render your horse pretty sedate and prob not wanting to jump an Olympic track cleanly…maybe not at all! Note the LAST LINE of your post. Enough said.

[Edgar]

Cian O Connors case was completely different, so was Jessica Kurtens and I do think Ludger 's claim was also some ingredient in a liniment but do not remember what lost them the gold specifically. The Irish have had issues with banned substances for sure, bad luck or intentionally, however it seems with that in mind if not the rider, since his routine was OK in his mind after all the previous negative tests including the one in Hong Kong, the Irish vet, coach and whoever else represents them would be all over this before something happens. I think this last case was a very stupid mistake.

[YankeeLawyer]

[QUOTE=Edgar;3470735]
Cian O Connors case was completely different, so was Jessica Kurtens and I do think Ludger 's claim was also some ingredient in a liniment but do not remember what lost them the gold specifically. The Irish have had issues with banned substances for sure, bad luck or intentionally, however it seems with that in mind if not the rider, since his routine was OK in his mind after all the previous negative tests including the one in Hong Kong, the Irish vet, coach and whoever else represents them would be all over this before something happens. I think this last case was a very stupid mistake.[/QUOTE]

I would agree with that assessment.

[bluemoonfarms]

I posted this on the other thread.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/olympicsNews/idUKPEK30997520080823

[bluemoonfarms]

Any news on the B Samples?

[mares_tails]

@Ruby G. Weber;3469319

If these labs’ tests are so sensitive they should be capable of determining what amount of a substance is therapeutic and what amount is abusive.

Sorry, but qualitative analysis (is it there?) is A LOT easier than quantitative analysis (how much is there?), and determining quantitative therapeutic thresholds is even more complicated.

Did you want to pay a $10,000 drug testing fee at your next show? :eek:

[Pat]

it’s responses like the one’s I’ve recieved here that illustrate why other BB’s refer to COTH as crotch.

[Janet]

@Edgar;3470735

Cian O Connors case was completely different, so was Jessica Kurtens and I do think Ludger 's claim was also some ingredient in a liniment but do not remember what lost them the gold specifically.

Not positive, but I seem to remember “testosterone in an ointment”.
But maybe that was someone else.

[Mozart]

@Janet;3471143

Not positive, but I seem to remember “testosterone in an ointment”.
But maybe that was someone else.

I think you are thinking of Rusty and Ulla Salzgeber. Wasn’t that their problem?

[Ruby_G_Weber]

I’m afraid there is a bit of naivity here. Most of the Olympic athletes and their connections, Jamican sprinters, Chinese gymnists, Russian weight lifters and yes, equestrians push the envelope in some fashion. Maybe it’s a new fabric for swim suits, maybe it’s a thinner tire for the bicycle racers, maybe it’s a better designed running shoe or just maybe it’s injecting a horse’s joints as close up to the competition as possible. Team vets are invaluable at Championships like the Olympics. You can bet one of their jobs is to be up to date as to the outer limits of said envelope.

In the case of all of these positive A samples, from Athens, to HK and everything in between these riders admitted (often before the results of the B sample have been made public) they Did have their hand in the cookie jar.

Why if these riders were innocent did they admit the use of an ointment, linament or anything? (As far as Cian goes, if my memory serves me, somehow his B sample mysteriously disappeared. And I’d be curious to know why his vet chose those sedatives, instead of something more commonly used for the purpose stated. Especially when one of those more commonly used sedatives is undetectable in a relatively short period of time.)

Several years ago three horses were tested at the FEI jog before a WC event in the US.
Horse A’s test was negative. Horse B’s test showed .31 nanograms of bute. Horse C’s test showed .07 nanograms of bute. Horse B’s case was dropped on a technicality (no secure stabling), Horse C’s owner served 30 days suspension. (Horse C’s owner chose not to fight it.) About three months later, an American vet - who was a member of the FEI veterinary committee and also privy to the above mentioned scenario - was in Switzerland at an FEI meeting. He asked to see the paperwork on file regarding Horse B and C. The paperwork was “unavailable.”

Draw your own conclusions.

These elite riders/grooms/managers/vets know you can’t use a product as benign as Vetrolin! If they choose to use a therapy, ulcer med, whatever, someone on their team has approved it.

As I said in a previous post, both the FEI and USEF have backed themselves into a corner with their drug rules. (Personally I think USEF is far to easy regarding one but that’s for another discussion.)

At any rate, what could the FEI do that is worse than what the IOC has in denying Ludgar and Cian their gold medals, the Norwegians their bronze and the others a chance to compete for an individual medal?

[Janet]

@Mozart;3471220

I think you are thinking of Rusty and Ulla Salzgeber. Wasn’t that their problem?

You are probably right.

[YankeeLawyer]

[QUOTE=Ruby G. Weber;3471251]
In the case of all of these positive A samples, from Athens, to HK and everything in between these riders admitted (often before the results of the B sample have been made public) they Did have their hand in the cookie jar.

Why if these riders were innocent did they admit the use of an ointment, linament or anything? [/QUOTE]

Correct me if I am wrong but I believe to date the only rider (of the 4 whose horses tested positive at this Olympics) who has provided a statement is Lynch, and he admitted using Equi-block. Have any of the other riders admitted (or denied) anything yet?

[flshgordon]

@Ruby G. Weber;3471251

I’m afraid there is a bit of naivity here. Most of the Olympic athletes and their connections, Jamican sprinters, Chinese gymnists, Russian weight lifters and yes, equestrians push the envelope in some fashion. Maybe it’s a new fabric for swim suits, maybe it’s a thinner tire for the bicycle racers, maybe it’s a better designed running shoe or just maybe it’s injecting a horse’s joints as close up to the competition as possible. Team vets are invaluable at Championships like the Olympics. You can bet one of their jobs is to be up to date as to the outer limits of said envelope.

In the case of all of these positive A samples, from Athens, to HK and everything in between these riders admitted (often before the results of the B sample have been made public) they Did have their hand in the cookie jar.

Why if these riders were innocent did they admit the use of an ointment, linament or anything? (As far as Cian goes, if my memory serves me, somehow his B sample mysteriously disappeared. And I’d be curious to know why his vet chose those sedatives, instead of something more commonly used for the purpose stated. Especially when one of those more commonly used sedatives is undetectable in a relatively short period of time.)

Several years ago three horses were tested at the FEI jog before a WC event in the US.
Horse A’s test was negative. Horse B’s test showed .31 nanograms of bute. Horse C’s test showed .07 nanograms of bute. Horse B’s case was dropped on a technicality (no secure stabling), Horse C’s owner served 30 days suspension. (Horse C’s owner chose not to fight it.) About three months later, an American vet - who was a member of the FEI veterinary committee and also privy to the above mentioned scenario - was in Switzerland at an FEI meeting. He asked to see the paperwork on file regarding Horse B and C. The paperwork was “unavailable.”

Draw your own conclusions.

These elite riders/grooms/managers/vets know you can’t use a product as benign as Vetrolin! If they choose to use a therapy, ulcer med, whatever, someone on their team has approved it.

As I said in a previous post, both the FEI and USEF have backed themselves into a corner with their drug rules. (Personally I think USEF is far to easy regarding one but that’s for another discussion.)

At any rate, what could the FEI do that is worse than what the IOC has in denying Ludgar and Cian their gold medals, the Norwegians their bronze and the others a chance to compete for an individual medal?

I still say that it makes absolutely no sense for 4 completely unrelated riders to test positive for the same obscure substance. That to me smacks of contamination in the lab.

I don’t agree that every pro equestrian athlete is pushing the limit as close as they can to almost violating the drug rules. I find that theory absurd. And if someone has been using an ointment/liniment/etc all year, been drug tested and been found to be in compliance with FEI rules, then how can people say “they had it coming” and broke the rules intentionally? If I’m using something that has .02% of something in it then I would consider that to be a pretty innocuous ingredient. And if I’ve been tested while using it and it’s negative, I’m going to assume there is no problem. And as for someone on the team approving it–I’m assuming someone did or he wouldn’t have used it!