Jumping sires.

[stoicfish]

WBFSH Top 10 Jumping Sire Ranking

1 BALOUBET DU ROUET - 10.328 (SF)
2 KANNAN - 9.576 (KWPN)
3 DARCO - 8.442 (BWP)
4 QUICK STAR - 7.983 (SF)
5 HEARTBREAKER - 7.499 (KWPN)
6 CARETINO - 6.844 (Hol)
7 QUIDAM DE REVEL - 6.308 (SF)
8 NABAB DE RÊVE - 6.067 (SF)
9 DIAMANT DE SEMILLY - 5.644 (SF)
10 CARTHAGO - 5.585 (Hol)

Interesting to see only 2 Holsteiner’s sires in the top 10 and the highest one is 6th. They are #1 in the stud book rankings though.
What else is noticeable right away is the amount of SF you see in this list. Which means out of the top 4000 jumping horses in the world, most of them have SF sires, regardless of the studbook. SF is #3 on the stud book rankings, which might mean that the SF stallion are doing better when bred to other mares. And their top horse, that put them in third, is sired by Kannan (KWPN).
The list is based on the results of the top 4000 jumping horses in the world.
Some other noticeable things, the Dutch sires are both influenced by Nimmerdor.
Many people come on here to ask about jumping sires and lines. This is a great snapshot of successful bloodlines that are proven in the sport.
BTW this is not a shot at anyone registry and I hope this doesn’t go down the usual road of Holsteiner vs Dutch as that would diminish the possible value of actually looking at which lines are doing well and why. It might be we need more blood in our horses and with the absence of the next Ladykiller or Cottage son, the SF are providing it.

Stud book rankings
Horses

[vineyridge]

Unless they have changed the studbook methodology, it’s just the top five (six?) horses in each discipline from each studbook. They add their points together and rank the studbooks by the total points of those five (six?) horses. And one must notice that TB is not one of their studbooks. Last time I ran the numbers, full TBs would have been second to the Irish as an eventing studbook.

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;7078816]
Unless they have changed the studbook methodology, it’s just the top five (six?) horses in each discipline from each studbook. They add their points together and rank the studbooks by the total points of those five (six?) horses. And one must notice that TB is not one of their studbooks. Last time I ran the numbers, full TBs would have been second to the Irish as an eventing studbook.[/QUOTE]

Yep. That’s why I thought the stallion list was more revealing of successful bloodlines. I would love to see the same thing for dam lines. I bet the Hol. would do very well in that category.

Just to add. Galoubet A is the sire of the 1st and 4th stallion. Alme is in the pedigree of all of the SF except #9. Alme is extremely pre-potent in that position.

[sixpoundfarm]

Guess I should by happy that my Kannan mare is infoal to Quinar (v. QDR)! I think that baby will jump!

[Tiki]

And I am thrilled with my foal this year whose grandsire is Galoubet and great grandsire, or course, Alme. She also had Gem Twist, King of Diamonds and Spectacular Bid. Bred to jump and you know she will.

[rodawn]

I love looking at pedigrees.

What’s really interesting about Quidam’s pedigree is he triples up on Orange Peel through 3 of Orange Peel’s different sons - The Last Orange, Jus de Pomme, Plain d’Espoirs.

Quidam’s son, Nabab de Reve, adds yet another dose of Orange Peel through his mare line via Plain d’Espoirs, and his mom’s line adds a second dose of Furioso xx. Their success could well be a strong dose of these rather special genes.

Diamant is 2x Orange Peel as well, top and bottom, once through Jus de Pomme and once through The Last Orange.

The major lineages for all the jumping stallions base out of some notable foundational stallions:

Uppercut xx TB
Alme SF
Nimmerdor KWPN
Cottage Son xx TB
Cor de la Bryere SF

Furioso xx (TB) sired a number of stallion sons, but 2 sons played the greatest of roles in developing many of today’s jumpers:
(a) Furioso II
(b) Mexico

Mexico sired Le Mexico (SF), a notable jumping great who was kinda slow to get started.

Furioso II of course sired many notable sons, but Voltaire is very notable due to his combined genetics with Gotthard (Goldfische II) and it seems combining Voltaire with Nimmerdor has produced some notable greats.

If you do a testmating on The Sport Horse Database and request ancestors containing Nimmerdor and Voltaire you get some spectacular results:

Aerobic (Carthago x Unbelievable)
Kannan (Voltaire x Cemeta)
Red Devil (Heartbreaker x Jorina Bella)
Toronto (Now or Never x Larinka)
Uccello (Now or Never x Baranda)
Valentino (Now or Never x Patricia)
Vallado (Now or Never x Ecaranda)
Seignor Kervec (Quidam de Revel x Ba Belle Van’t Roosakker)

(Now or Never is sired by Voltaire and out of a Nimmerdor mare!)

And the list goes on and on and on and on about this particular combination. Needless to say, a pattern develops. Certain blood is a nick and the sons and daughters of Nimmerdor and Voltaire are one such.

The best we can do is follow the leading of what works from the past. If Orange Peel works with Furioso then run with it. Since Furioso grandfathered Le Mexico and also grandfathered Voltaire, then a Le Mexico line might also work with Orange Peel, hence Quidam! How twisty-turny it gets. It’s not a guarantee of course, but a goodly thought nonetheless!

It is too bad my mare must be retired. She is both Uppercut and Le Mexico with Belisar on top (she is related to the mares named above - Patricia, Ecaranda, Baranda, Larinka) and I would have just LOVED to breed or ET her, preferrably to Now or Never himself (but he doesn’t freeze), so second choice would be to Uccello, Wilton, or Valentino. Sigh.

Genetics are fun, hey?

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

[QUOTE=stoicfish;7078571]
It might be we need more blood in our horses and with the absence of the next Ladykiller or Cottage son, the SF are providing it.

Stud book rankings
Horses[/QUOTE]

Kannan, isn’t very high on blood in type or breeding though. I’m pretty sure he needs a lighter mare. Which SF blood stallions are you looking at when you are referencing blood as the factor that has them doing better than the rest? Orange Peel has been mentioned, but he is pretty far back for most–even was for Alme.

Genuinely interested…

[vineyridge]

I was just cruising around looking at pedigrees on the lists and found a couple of very unusual horses.

One is Rex Z who is the product of a brother and sister mating: Rebel I Z x Ratina Z.

Another is Bella Donna’s great grandsire who is a Shagya named Bajar. He too is the product of a brother/sister mating: Suakim x Gazelle.

Maybe close inbreeding ought to be rethought.

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=TrotTrotPumpkn;7082371]
Kannan, isn’t very high on blood in type or breeding though. I’m pretty sure he needs a lighter mare. Which SF blood stallions are you looking at when you are referencing blood as the factor that has them doing better than the rest? Orange Peel has been mentioned, but he is pretty far back for most–even was for Alme.

Genuinely interested…[/QUOTE]

Was throwing it out there as an idea. But what prompted me to postulate, is that the SF are one of the more TB based WB registries. If you look at the SF on the list (not Kannan, as he is obviously not a SF), is that you see most of the line breeding is Tb in their pedigrees and their type is more Tb than most WB’s. Like BdR’s dam is line bred Rantzau (Corde’s sire). I believe line breeding has more of an influence than simple percentages. As in 4 different Tb’s or the same one 3 times. I believe the 3 times of the same horse is more potent for the genes that are the positive influence from Tb.
Quick Star has same sire as BdR but a mainly AA dam.
#8 on the list and his sire at # 7 both are at around 60% Tb .
Not to mention that the trotter influence and Demi were horses that were based on Tb’s. Most Wb’s are local based with key Tb sires added. I find that the SF are Tb added in most generations to reinforce the influence.
I think how they calculate the % on horse telex is not necessary representative of how genetic material is inherited. Like the benefit of line breeding or where the Tb is added in each generation to reinforce.
And, of course, it is not simply all Tb genes that are of value otherwise we would just use OTTB and be totally successful. It is the addition of certain type of traits and the reinforcement of traits that works so well.
The Holsteiners have done a really good job of placing the right type of Tb genes and then line breeding as to keep it in the pool. The difference may be that the Tb’s they picked best suited their mares and not necessarily what best suits other Wb mares from the different registries (like Corde doing better in Hol than SF as a sire). Like I said, I find it interesting that the Hol. stallions, which are available to everyone, have not had more success with outside mares. I bet, without proof, that their mares are more successful when bred to outside stallions as a hit rate as opposed to their stallions and outside mares. Of course they do very well together.

[sixpoundfarm]

Here is the hypo mating for my mare, curious to hear thoughts. I really like having some SF blood in them.
My Kannan mare is average bone, could be prettier, but super athletic, very strong and muscular. Excellent mover, about 16.1 . She is on the wider side too.
http://sporthorse-data.com/dbtestmating.php?&sireid=10285288&damid=10334235

And one other example: This one looked quite interesting…
http://sporthorse-data.com/dbtestmating.php?&sireid=10469300&damid=10334235

[rodawn]

Oooh, I like the second one. REALLY like the second one. But they’re both really good, pedigree-wise. I would try Quintender the first year and Quinar the second. You’ll get a good opportunity to see what your mare sends through and you’ll then get a really good idea of whether any of those should be repeated breedings.

Ideally, we should be looking pretty closely at your mare’s physicality. Sometimes Kannan mares need trimming, but if she’s already then you want to keep the power and add to it. Power in a jumper is a very, very good thing. Strong bones with great ligamentous attachments and excellent quality of feet are really things you should be emphasizing and in a jumper, the topline is extremely important since everything hangs on it.

[sixpoundfarm]

Well she’s currently baking #1. Perhaps another year for the Quintender. Pretty sure he’s doing well with his current rider, Ludo PHILIPPAERTS (BEL).

I am remiss in getting photos of the mare, Quartz, unfortunately. Need to get that added to my to do list! Here is one head on, https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/966934_10201172979671711_915694361_o.jpg

Here is one more hypo mating I’ve given some thought to also.
http://sporthorse-data.com/dbtestmating.php?&sireid=10435578&damid=10334235

[Anteup]

I’m so jealous of the obscene amount of genetics knowledge you folks have. I want to be like you where do I start!?

[rodawn]

[QUOTE=Anteup;7083778]
I’m so jealous of the obscene amount of genetics knowledge you folks have. I want to be like you where do I start!?[/QUOTE]

Literally by studying one pedigree at a time. I’ve been studying for years and I continue to study ALL THE TIME unceasingly. I also study what successful breeders in Europe are crossing and try to follow their road map. I watch the competitions and see what lines are competing and how well they are doing so, not just in the big leagues under the great riders, but also in the “little” leagues under amateurs because many of the same lines show up time and time again as being consistent for a particular sport and some lines are not only extremely gifted at their sport, but also suitable for the amateur and not just a pro ride.

Best advice I can give you - pick a studbook (like KWPN, or Hanoverian, or Oldenburg) and start studying their approved stallions’ mare line family groups and his sire lines, you’ll start to see trends and family groups that work together. The biggest impacts on a stallion is his mare line. Or pick a pedigree from your own mare and track down everything and everyone in it. It’s a long, arduous process, but that’s the only way you’re gonna learn it. It took 12 years of education to get to the point where you would be ready to learn calculus, but you started with learning that 1+1 = 2.

I started with Hanoverian because I was working as a broodmare and stallion manager in a Hanoverian breeding facility when I was younger, and my first mare was from their program. When I picked up an imported KWPN mare, I worked really hard learning her lines and expanding onwards from there. And then I picked up a Swedish mare who had been imported from Sweden originally and started in from there on her pedigree. I am still most comfortable with the German-based lineages (Han, West, Old, somewhat less so of Trak and Holstein), because I’ve been immersed in it for so many years, and so hence all of my breeding swings towards the Hanoverian, no matter what country/studbook the mare was originally from.

Everyone has to start somewhere and literally the only way to get started is to pick up a pedigree and start tracing it - reading up on everything you can find on the horses in that pedigree - from knowledgeable sources, not everything online is accurate. Mare lines are harder to study only because in years past, the really great mares were held at the farm to breed and her job was solely that of passing forward her great genes to the next generation. Nowadays, it is a bit easier because a lot of the great mares are in competition and being broodies at the same time thanks to the advancements in medicine that allow ET. Still, even with the old-time mares you can see trends and see what the great mares produced and you’ll note that a mare who produced a notable stallion was a special mare indeed, and a highly valued and prized mare actually produced more than 1 stallion (is very hard for her to achieve such things!). Look, follow, read, and notice. And then you start to absorb.

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=Anteup;7083778]
I’m so jealous of the obscene amount of genetics knowledge you folks have. I want to be like you where do I start!?[/QUOTE]

That was tongue in cheek, right?

Passive observation of results and guessing is far from genetic knowledge. I don’t say this to be rude but to point out that actual genetics is far from completely understood (even in people) and the best knowledge we have is the stats that come from large populations, like the Tb people use or to some degree the BLUP’s. But any one horse is a bit of a mystery as the number of possibilities is huge. Think about how many great horses have average full siblings?
I’m not saying breeding is completely random, because you can increase the odds greatly by having generations of selected horses but at the final count, you still can end up with a fail even out of the best horses.
But I think watching the larger population is the best way to guess at trends. That is why the Verbands are very useful as they get to see the overall picture and can help with choices that it would be hard for anyone breeder to get enough exposure to see.

[Anteup]

No tongue in cheek. I am truly envious. I have a great interest in genetics and breeding. I love looking at stallions and check pedigrees but it just seems like such a vast topic for a layman such as me I am going to try a single line as rodawn suggests. Maybe I’ll start with my horse’s sire. If nothing else I’ll know a lot about my guy!

[vineyridge]

If you’re really interested, one place to start is with horse genetics research papers. Much of the research around the world is done with TBs because there is so much more money involved with the racing industry, but the Germans have done work on their WBs, the Dutch on KWPNs, the French on SFs and the Spanish on Andalusians. IIRC, there is even a bit of Irish work on RIDs and ISHs. The papers are FASCINATING. They are on all sorts of topics like OCD, muscle fibers, the development of the domesticated horse, MtDNA, and such things as the X and Y Chromosomes. I don’t know who first posted it, but there is a very, very recent paper about the lack of diversity in the Y chromosome in most horses. There happens to be a fairly new mutation in the TB which is taking over the racing world, but other than that, there are really only two variations in the Y chromosome in domesticated horses, regardless of breed–IIRC–at least in the breeds that were studied in that particular paper.

Since the sire line of virtually all (maybe all) WBs eventually traces to a TB, you might find www.tbheritage.com useful.

[Anteup]

Cool thanks Viney! I’m going to look that one up!