Jumping styles?

[Rt66Kix]

A couple of disclaimers…

1. Someone said this was discussed to death. I’ve not noticed any threads about it, so please point me to them if possible.

2. I do not want to start any flame wars; I am truly seeking information.

The cat-in-heat jumping style, the traditional foxhunting style, and others; could anyone describe the differences and possibly provide pictures?

The only thing I know about jumping is what I read in PH’s George Morris column. Is this a show ring hunter style, or a foxhunting style? Or are they the same?

Someone told me that he bemoaned the day GM started changing what Caprilli had done. Comments?

I hope to begin jumping lessons this summer in order to pop over a few logs while hunting. Up to this point my jumping has been, “Don’t bang him in the mouth! Don’t sit down too soon! Keep your eyes up! Keep your center over his!”

I have survived, but really want to educate myself further. Thanks!

[SidesaddleRider]

“Correct form” is correct no matter whether you’re in the show ring or out foxhunting, and can also be translaterd as “secure” form. GM preaches “correct” form, which is sadly lacking in the hunter show ring, especially among the professionals. (and being told that some how the rider laying on the horse’s neck, pivoting at the knee, and having the lower leg anywhere BUT underneath oneself is actually helping the horse and not interfering, I’ll never quite understand). Nowadays, while there are some riders jumping in the correct form in the ring, you’ll usually have to look to the eventers to see it mostly.

I’ll critique my picture here:
http://www.printroom.com/ViewGalleryPhoto.asp?userid=geegeelrg&gallery_id=953924&tcount=75&scount=29
I am quite happy with my flat back and soft hand. However, I am doing a crest release, not an auto release, I could be closer to the saddle, and my lower leg has slipped back about 3" than “ideal”. (we won’t comment on the 30 extra lbs I’m carrying on my j-lo bootay…I’m working on that…)

http://www.printroom.com/ViewGalleryPhoto.asp?userid=geegeelrg&gallery_id=953924&tcount=75&scount=38
Mark has very nice, very “correct” form. He has a lovely auto release with his left hand, with a straight line from bit to elbow, that is simply supporting and in no way interfering with his horse’s jump. His leg is right underneath him, on the girth, and he is out of the saddle just enough for this 3’ wall. It looks like his right hand has risen up just a bit and is pressing on the neck in a long crest release, but it’s hard to tell. He has a very slight roach in his back.

http://imagebank.ipcmedia.com/imageBank/h/hunt22.jpg
This is an “old school” style, with the goal being, make it over the jump, and do not interfere with the horse at all (notice he slipped the reins to give him plenty of room to get over this W-I-D-E hedge). This a very confident rider, as he is quite at ease, and yet very focused, and he trusts his horse to jump.

[SLW]

Sidesaddlerider did a wonderful job of answering your question. That last photo is particularly stunning!!

Rt66KX, am I correct in thinking your hunt horse is a Foxtrotter? You may find his jumping form to be more “upright” due to his conformation. I personally find that to be a comfortable jumping horse for all day riding. I’ve no idea about what the rated show guru’s ride today but in the old days an Equitation horse jumped a bit flatter and more upright than the hunter horse.

[LookinSouth]

@SLW;3142351

I’ve no idea about what the rated show guru’s ride today but in the old days an Equitation horse jumped a bit flatter and more upright than the hunter horse.

Mainly WB’s, TB’s and various crosses of WB and/or TB blood etc…There are examples outside of that norm but I’d say they are far and few between.

You are correct however that in the EQ ring a horse with a flatter, easier to ride jump versus a back cracking hunter is desired. To me, a well schooled Eq horse travels more like dresage horse than a hunter. More upright, more compact frame, on the bit and hind end engaged.

[LookinSouth]

@Rt66Kix;3141925

.

The cat-in-heat jumping style, the traditional foxhunting style, and others; could anyone describe the differences and possibly provide pictures?

Sidesaddle rider did a fabulous job of explaining some of the jumping styles. I can share two of my pictures that show the “laying on the neck” and another where my form is better (though certainly not ideal). I don’t have any of the “cat in heat” form pictures. :lol:

1.) Laying on the neck ( the result of jumping ahead and my stirrups too long, this the form I came to my event trainer with and she basically said “your gonna get yourself killed if you don’t jack those stirrups up a few holes and get off your horses neck; this isn’t the hunter ring:winkgrin:”

My leg is sliding back a bit and my crest release could be alot better. The only thing ideal in this picture is that my eyes are up, heels are down, back is flat and my leg is on:
http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2475572760101555132HFHxOv

This is my form after several months of XC jumping/stadium lessons with the event trainer. Notice I am not laying on the neck, stirrups are shorter, I am using a short crest release and my weight is more centered in the saddle. I am still jumping ahead slightly, but not too bad. My form is not nearly as good as the examples that Sidesaddle gave but at least it won’t get me killed riding XC.:lol:

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2965348610101555132oDoYoy

[Painted_Wings]

From our hunt

These are all photos from our hunt. There is a variety of skill levels and jumping styles.

Here’s our huntsman, fabulous rider, an excellent example of traditional style. Soft, yet centered and defensive. Heels are down, eyes are up. If this horse has a stop or misstep she is very unlikely to hit the ground. She’s staying out of her horse’s way.

http://www.pbase.com/stl_don/image/88568049

Contrast to this, kind of stiff, artificially posed like so many in the hunter ring. Not really giving a full release. Still some good basics, heels are down with the weight in them, eyes are up.

http://www.pbase.com/stl_don/image/88568063

Here is a classic, rider getting left and hitting horse in mouth. In his defense, the horse nearly stopped and he basically booted him over out of sheer determination. Yet with the horse getting hit in the mouth so badly, how likely is he to jump the next time? (In actuality this is a 20 yr old retired steeplechaser and it probably won’t make a difference to him)

http://www.pbase.com/stl_don/image/88568064

Next photo is sequence, rider has really been left and horse was really hit in mouth. His wife on the other hand next to him has good traditional style. Weight in heels, straight line elbow to mouth of the reins, not posing.

http://www.pbase.com/stl_don/image/88568066

Another one getting left and hitting his horse in the mouth, this should be avoided. One should grab mane or use a neck strap if they get left frequently.

This is a lovely photo. She is staying out of her horse’s mouth allowing him to use himself correctly. Note the difference in the jumping form of the horse when the rider does not interfere. It really bugs me (I guess I’m a dyed in the wool traditionalist) that this lovely young lady wears grey breeches with her shadbelly rather than beige or canary. Other than that her turnout is perfect.

http://www.pbase.com/stl_don/image/88568067

Jumping ahead - as opposed to the ones above where they where jumping behind.

http://www.pbase.com/stl_don/image/88568069

Another stiff, posed rider not giving a proper release, pony has hollowed his back as a result. In her defense this pony is a demon and would be in the next county if you gave him his head.

http://www.pbase.com/stl_don/image/88568070

Classic pinching at knee, lower leg has slipped back, she’s doing a good job of staying out of the horse’s mouth though. This is a green horse.

http://www.pbase.com/stl_don/image/88568071

[Samrdr1]

Yo Painted,

I hope Robt. or Steph. don’t read this thread or your gonna get your eyes clawed out, LOL

[wateryglen]

wow!

Well now! There ya go! You guys have really stepped up here! These are classic!

[lalahartma1]

Thank you for the photos! I was starting to get freaked out after seeing the ‘cat-in heat’ form everywhere I looked!

[veebug22]

Caprilli got people up off their horses’ backs in a forward position. He closed the hip angle and advocated people following their horses with soft, giving hands – obviously epitomized by the automatic release. He also, however, advocated a foot “home” in the stirrup and gripping the knees. A foot “home” in the stirrup means it’s not on the ball of the foot, but instead back toward the heel, like where the arch is. You can’t put your heel down in this position. Heels up and grip in the knees will encourage you to pivot on your knee over jumps (well, on the flat too), and your lower leg will come up. You lose your base of support this way. Try riding a stopper in this position and you’ll soon understand why it’s dangerous!! Good position (heels down, eyes up, shoulders back, etc) is not a “nice to have” – it’s what keeps you in the saddle and helps your horse do his job. George Morris advocates everything Caprilli did except for even contact through the leg and stirrup on the ball of the foot, which allows your heel to flex down. George did help the crest release to gain popularity, which was mainly to help novice riders to not hit their horses in the mouth, but it has now become the mainstay at the expense of the automatic release. You’ll now see very accomplished riders who seldom, if ever, use the automatic, and it truly is the better release when done correctly. But George bemoans the fact that it has taken over, and recognizes how ironic it is that he at one time encouraged more people to adopt the crest release. Anyhoo, it seems to me that George only improved on Caprilli’s methods, and actually he teaches most of them himself.

Rt66Kix, if you want to read an awesome book about everything jumping, but also how jumping and position have morphed through the centuries and from country to country, read George’s Because Every Round Counts. It’s a compilation of his 50 best COTH articles. Probably the most informative riding book I’ve ever read in terms of the “big picture,” including position through the ages, between countries, disciplines, etc. It contains quite a bit of riding theory. Also discusses foxhunting in some areas (George thinks ring riders should do it more!!). Great pictures that show different jumping styles. It’s also a fun opportunity to see how many different people GM proclaims to be “The Best Horseman of the 20th Century”

[Rt66Kix]

@veebug22;3145383

Rt66Kix, if you want to read an awesome book about everything jumping, but also how jumping and position have morphed through the centuries and from country to country, read George’s Because Every Round Counts. It’s a compilation of his 50 best COTH articles. Probably the most informative riding book I’ve ever read in terms of the “big picture,” including position through the ages, between countries, disciplines, etc. It contains quite a bit of riding theory. Also discusses foxhunting in some areas (George thinks ring riders should do it more!!). Great pictures that show different jumping styles. It’s also a fun opportunity to see how many different people GM proclaims to be “The Best Horseman of the 20th Century”

Thank you so much! Your response really helped me understand even more. I will get that book and read it.

I wonder if I’ll ever be able to jump. A childhood injury left me with a wonky pelvis/SI joint that makes my right leg unstable. My base of support on the right is questionable at times!

[ChocoMare]

@SLW;3142351

Rt66KX, am I correct in thinking your hunt horse is a Foxtrotter?

Nope. She rides Buddy the Wonder Quarter Horse - Snort, her MFT, is ridden by her DH

[moonriverfarm]

That was fun, looking at the hunt photos. I dont hunt anymore, but it brought back great momories. Thanks for sharing!

[Beverley]

http://www.pbase.com/stl_don/image/88568067

Actually, I would nitpick that this rider is ‘ducking,’ as we used to say. I do have a question- is this a hunter trials? I’m just wondering about the boots on the horse, haven’t shown in a while but it used to be that boots on hunters, whether inside or outside course, were verboten.

In comparison to the above, I’m not ‘ducking’ that much even riding at top speed in a pair race, here:

http://www.chronicleofmyhorse.com/photo/photo/show?id=1971868%3APhoto%3A20628&context=user

This next one is a ‘fake’ following hand or automatic release as it is called these days (we never used to have a name for it until that crest release thing became popular!). In this case the horse is an ex-steeplechaser that wanted you to keep hold of him rather than lightening the contact while approaching the fence. Note however that his nose is in front of the vertical, so he isn’t being interfered with. Contrast that with lots of pictures of crest release these days in the Chronicle where you see that head ratcheted in. Leg position not great, always a weakness of mine.

http://www.chronicleofmyhorse.com/photo/photo/show?id=1971868%3APhoto%3A25397&context=user

Just throwing this next one in to give a different angle, and because I forgot I had this picture on line and because he was a good ol’ hoss:

http://www.chronicleofmyhorse.com/photo/photo/show?id=1971868%3APhoto%3A25391&context=user

[LookinSouth]

@Beverley;3149259

This next one is a ‘fake’ following hand or automatic release as it is called these days (we never used to have a name for it until that crest release thing became popular!). In this case the horse is an ex-steeplechaser that wanted you to keep hold of him rather than lightening the contact while approaching the fence. Note however that his nose is in front of the vertical, so he isn’t being interfered with. Contrast that with lots of pictures of crest release these days in the Chronicle where you see that head ratcheted in. Leg position not great, always a weakness of mine.

http://www.chronicleofmyhorse.com/photo/photo/show?id=1971868%3APhoto%3A25397&context=user

Just throwing this next one in to give a different angle, and because I forgot I had this picture on line and because he was a good ol’ hoss:

http://www.chronicleofmyhorse.com/photo/photo/show?id=1971868%3APhoto%3A25391&context=user

If I am seeing the angle of your arm correctly in the 1st picture it appears the release is a shortened crest release not an automatic since there is not a straight line from elbow to bit and you are resting your hands just at the “crest” area. However, your last picture is a LOVELY example of an automatic release. Someone please correct me if I’m wrong :winkgrin:

all lovely pictures btw.

[SLW]

Beverly, wonderful photos of you and your horses. What tight knees on those horses!

Now that you’ve shared photos you have to tell us about the horses!

[Painted_Wings]

Not a hunter trials

Beverly,

Those photos were not from a hunter trials. Just a regular hunt. This was the blessing so people were braided and turned out more than usual.

[Beverley]

Lookin South, I just studied the pic on my wall and I suppose you are right that it looks like a sort of crest release, except I’ve never been in the habit of making contact with the hands in that way- they are close, but not resting. Thankfully learned to jump before all that crest release stuff started- if things go bad I am a grabber of mane.

SLW, first horse is Nick, 15.2h quarter horse, converted western pleasure horse, hunted 1973-1993 both in the field and whipping in, no brakes to speak of, jumped anything you pointed him at including wire and cattle guards, retired very much against his will, could pretty much only be caught if you had your hunting clothes on and would dump you in a heartbeat if you got off balance or lost a stirrup. But if you could keep a leg on either side he’d take you hunting forever.

Dark bay is Pride, OTTB/ex-steeplechaser, I bought him in '87 or so to use as a staff horse but hunted him in the field occasionally. He lost his left eye a few weeks after the photo was taken- bacterial and fungal infection. But hunted and timber raced (one season, not good enough to do a second season). Became a pretty good mountain horse here in Utah though I liked to remember to plan the trails so his eyeless side wasn’t next to a sheer dropoff. Last hunted in Wyoming in 1999, put down a couple of years ago due to infirmities of old age.

Last horse, Simon, unregistered quarter horse, anybody could ride him, in fact he once took a journalist who had never ridden before hunting w/ Potomac. Kids hunted him a lot, too. Cold blooded and mellow as they come but knew when you had to get to hounds in a hurry and would jump anything to get there, I jumped 4’6" in the ring with him one day just for grins. Sadly killed by lightning at age 14, otherwise probably would have gone at least another 10 seasons.

Combined purchase price for all three horses…$1,450. (One was free).

PW, thanks for the clarification! Lovely turnout in all pics!

[SLW]

What neat horses and stories behind them, thanks for sharing!

Love the total purchase price too!

[Foxtrot_s]

Wonderful explanations - I love the easy way the professional hunt staff riders just sit and seem so confident and relaxed - from years of spending many hours in the saddle over all sorts of terrain. And the fact that out hunting not every jump is picture perfect when everyone has a head of steam. Lovely horses. I’m going back to read all the postings at my leisure.