Just Curious - How much do Stallion Owners "earn" on average from stud fees

[showhorsegallery]

I’m sure it varies wildly, but on average how much income does the average stallion owner see from stud fees? I mean gross income, not net after boarding, marketing, showing and the like.

I’m sure for top tier stallions it could be quite high, but I’m interested in what it might be for the average mid-level stallion in a variety breeds/disciplines (Quarter Horse, Appaloosa, Eventing, Saddleseat for example).

If you are a research savvy you could probably pull registered get and multiply by the stud fee to get an idea, but I’m not sure where to start to look into it.

I’m just curious for a minor purpose of a website I’m working on.

[Daventry]

I don’t think you’re going to get anyone answering this question. Though, it is widely speculated that the average stallion only gets 4-6 outside mares a year for breeding. So based on that statistic that has been tossed around for years, you can figure out an average gross.

[showhorsegallery]

[QUOTE=Daventry;7690118]
I don’t think you’re going to get anyone answering this question. Though, it is widely speculated that the average stallion only gets 4-6 outside mares a year for breeding. So based on that statistic that has been tossed around for years, you can figure out an average gross.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I figured the answers would come from non-stallion owners giving me their best guesses. Never hurts to ask though

[equiniphile]

The problem with multiplying offspring by stud fee is that oftentimes, a stud fee is set high to deter owners with non-breeding quality mares. It is then lowered considerably for the majority of quality mares.

[cyriz_s_mom]

And are you talking about gross income from stud fees or net income? Just advertising, registration fees, approval renewals are substantial. Not to mention, showing/training expenses or any kind of capital expenses.

There are very few who are making lots of money from standing a stallion in the US.

Heck, there are not a ton of people making any kind of NET income from stallions, especially in the last few years with the economy the way it’s been. There was a major decline in breedings across the board.

[cripplecreekfrm]

I was going to say that my stallion costs me more to stand him at stud than it does when I don’t stand him. ( I know this because I didn’t advertise him nor stand him at all this year). He is also my personal riding horse and even with sending him out for a 30 day refresher with a trainer he still cost me less than when he is actually standing stud…He is an average WB stud that has a nice local following…has sired great eventers, hunters and lower level dressage horses.

[showjumpers66]

Not much. :winkgrin:

To simplify, lets say that the collection fee covers the costs of the individual collection and maintaining the laboratory and equipment.

Bare bones minimum per year - $9,100 to $13,900

Maintenance of stallion
(pasture) - $3,600
(stall) - $8,400

Registry dues
(3 registries & one nomination such as IHF) - $3,000

Advertising
(2 stallion gallery print ads and 2 online ads) - $2,000

Self maintained website
(domain name, hosting, purchase of photo rights for webpage) - $500

Many of today’s stallions are booking mares for stud fees between ($1,000 to $2,000), but most are sold via incentives (i.e. discounts). For ease of calculating let’s say the average stud fee is $1,500 less a 25% discount so $1,125. A stallion owner needs to book 8 to 12 mares just to cover out of pocket expenses without considering anything else such as showing, training, stallion testing, initial stallion approvals, hauling, stocking frozen semen, initial purchase of the stallion, etc.

[showhorsegallery]

[QUOTE=cyriz’s mom;7690176]
And are you talking about gross income from stud fees or net income? Just advertising, registration fees, approval renewals are substantial. Not to mention, showing/training expenses or any kind of capital expenses.

There are very few who are making lots of money from standing a stallion in the US.

Heck, there are not a ton of people making any kind of NET income from stallions, especially in the last few years with the economy the way it’s been. There was a major decline in breedings across the board.[/QUOTE]

Gross income.

[showhorsegallery]

[QUOTE=equiniphile;7690138]
The problem with multiplying offspring by stud fee is that oftentimes, a stud fee is set high to deter owners with non-breeding quality mares. It is then lowered considerably for the majority of quality mares.[/QUOTE]

I did not know this. It would never have occurred to me to negotiate on a stud fee.

[crosscreeksh]

We use our own stallion to breed only our own mares. Breeding live cover and dealing with some whacko mares (and owners too) led us to this descision. If we breed four mares a year(we are only breeding 1/2 of the mares each year, now.) the cost we save in shipping/boarding/vet/stud fees/misc. fees minus the cost to keep a stallion on our property is what we figure we “make/save” each year. In Oklahoma you can find QH’s, paints, etc. standing for as little as $100 to $500 dollars…locals have no concept of TB or WB stud fees in the “real world”. I can’t imagine there is a lot of profit on stallion services in our area.

[showjumpers66]

Most stallion owners offer incentives for return breeders, multiple mares, premium/performance mares as well as booking early.

[QUOTE=showhorsegallery;7690358]
I did not know this. It would never have occurred to me to negotiate on a stud fee.[/QUOTE]

[showhorsegallery]

[QUOTE=showjumpers66;7690354]
Not much. :winkgrin:

Many of today’s stallions are booking mares for stud fees between ($1,000 to $2,000), but most are sold via incentives (i.e. discounts). For ease of calculating let’s say the average stud fee is $1,500 less a 25% discount so $1,125. A stallion owner needs to book 8 to 12 mares just to cover out of pocket expenses without considering anything else such as showing, training, stallion testing, initial stallion approvals, hauling, stocking frozen semen, initial purchase of the stallion, etc.[/QUOTE]

For an nice quality stallion, but not necessarily a super, high-end warmblood, is it typical to get 8 to 10 outside mares a year - doing the type of advertising you mention above? (Knowing that’s likely an impossible question to answer because it’s surely on a case by case basis).

I love to look at horse/breeder websites and for sale ads, and it seems a lot of the mid-level stallions are not marketed online to their fullest potential. Simple info like height is missing.

I know a really nice niche stallion that isn’t marketed at all and still gets 5 or 6 outside mares a year. With a better digital marketing strategy, he would surely get more.

[showjumpers66]

No … the super high-end stallions are getting 8 to 20 mares with only a limited group getting more. Most of the average to lower end stallions only get a handful of mares with the exception of those marketed well or offered at bottom dollar.

The advertising is not the issue. Our economy and decline in the industry is hitting us the hardest. Breeding is down all the way around.

[Daventry]

[QUOTE=showhorsegallery;7690358]
I did not know this. It would never have occurred to me to negotiate on a stud fee.[/QUOTE]

As a Stallion Owner, I get quite offended when a Mare Owner contacts me and tries to negotiate a lower stud fee. I try and take a deep breath and answer politely. ;). As showjumpers66 mentioned, lots of Stallion Owners offer discounts for returning mares, performance mares, early bird, etc…which is what we do.

We stand sport pony and hunter pony stallions…so are at a HUGE disadvantage, as compared to other Stallion Owners such as warmbloods, as our stud fees are forced to be considerably lower than the average warmblood stud fees…but advertising costs, yearly licensing fees, collection fees, etc. are the same as the big boys, but yet we cannot charge the big boy stud fees. ;). So while a warmblood Stallion Owner may be able to get away with charging $2,000 for a stud fee, pony Stallion Owners are often stuck at $500-750. Unfortunately, the $2,000 ad in Practical Horseman costs the same whether the stallion is 17 HH or 13 HH.

[ladyj79]

[QUOTE=crosscreeksh;7690367]
In Oklahoma you can find QH’s, paints, etc. standing for as little as $100 to $500 dollars…locals have no concept of TB or WB stud fees in the “real world”. I can’t imagine there is a lot of profit on stallion services in our area.[/QUOTE]

That’s kind of funny as my experience has always been that warmblood breeders don’t really have a concept of the stud fees for racing thoroughbred or working cow horses. To my knowledge, the top wb stallion stud fees are nowhere near the top working horse stud fees, and not even in the same universe as tb breeding fees.

[pinecone]

[quote]In Oklahoma you can find QH’s, paints, etc. standing for as little as $100 to $500 dollars…locals have no concept of TB or WB stud fees in the “real world”. I can’t imagine there is a lot of profit on stallion services in our area.
That’s kind of funny as my experience has always been that warmblood breeders don’t really have a concept of the stud fees for racing thoroughbred or working cow horses. To my knowledge, the top wb stallion stud fees are nowhere near the top working horse stud fees, and not even in the same universe as tb breeding fees.
[/quote]

The difference is that while there may be some “top working horse stud fees” which are high, they’re the minority. There’s also a huge percentage of backyard QH/Paint stallions with stud fees in the hundreds, because there’s no approval process for Quarter Horses or Paints and low quality horses are more likely to be kept intact. You don’t see this even remotely as often with Warmbloods. Most people have the sense to geld a Warmblood if they can’t get him approved, so you don’t see the same percentages of crap backyard quality Warmbloods standing for <$500 as you do with the Quarter Horses and Paints. Once a stallion owner has taken the steps to get a Warmblood stallion approved they’re not likely to offer him in the <$1000 range.

I don’t think anyone here has dismissed how outrageous the stud fees can be for racing Thoroughbreds.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=showjumpers66;7690368]
Most stallion owners offer incentives for return breeders, multiple mares, premium/performance mares as well as booking early.[/QUOTE]

Everything in the horse world is negotiable. One of the ways that benefits the MO and the SO is for the MO to offer to pay the entire stud fee (not just booking) in the fall PRIOR to the breeding season…say by Jan. 1st in exchange for a discount.

This way the SO gets to have the $$ in advance and the MO gets an (often) deep discount. You can also get a good discount if you are willing to work with frozen from a stallion. I just purchased a breeding for 2015 to one of the top WB stallions standing in the USA for 50% of the advertised price by paying before Jan. 1st AND agreeing to use this stallion’s (well-proven) frozen semen.

You asked about other breeds/disciplines; the answers you are getting is almost all WB related, since that’s what most of the SO on this board do.

TB stallions are (in general) much higher and if THEY don’t turn close to a profit they are gelded, sold, whatever.

Arabians with any kind of show or produce record usually stand for a higher fee than WBs…which I’ve never been able to understand, because IMHO it’s tougher to sell an Arab for serious money than a WB. But it’s not unusual to see an Arab stallion who has a Regional championship standing for $2000.

For 7 yrs I stood a cremello Akhal Teke stallion. I did virtually no advertising. Even so, he usually covered 1-5 outside mares per year at a reasonable $750 per (plus collection fees if needed).

I also used him for Arab mares that I owned or was leasing and the foals sold really well as weanlings. So he certainly paid for his own keep and made me afew bucks each year.

I think one reason the WB stallion is so expensive is because of all the testing & performance requirements needed for approval. Serious WB breeders will not consider a stallion who hasn’t been approved and it’s not cheap to get them there.

I would say in the USA standing a WB stallion is not usually a big money-making venture. Of course, it’s different over seas.

[TrueColours]

The best year I had with my Guaranteed Gold stallion was 49 mares that year. REALLY wanted to break 50, but just couldn’t do it. He averages 20-25 outside mares per year

Costs can vary widely. We grow our own hay and if everything aligns well my costs are very low on a per bale basis. BUT … it cost me just over $5000.00 to seed my fields, I have a couple of fields that need to be redone in the next 1-3 years so have to accrue a few thousand to do them. Add in hay equipment, cost for help, cost for supplies, etc and once you add in those costs to your “cheap per bale” price of hay, it can add up

I feed a top quality feed where the per bag price varies between $22.00 and $43.00 per bag and what they need - they get. I don’t scrimp with anyone. My stallion and his revenues pay not only his costs, but the costs for the mares and their foals, and our operating expenses on the farm and he has done so on a consistent basis for many years. Every year in fact …

His appeal is not just one breed registry or one discipline and that helps immensely. Everything from hunter, jumper, eventing, dressage, endurance, WP, HUS, carriage driving - you name it. My clients have bred for those disciplines. And TB’s, WB’s, Arabs, AQHA, APHA, Appy, Morgan, Akhal Teke, Clyde, Shire, Belgian, etc, etc. Some clients just wanted something flashy, pretty and pleasant to spend their time and money on and had no intention of ever entering a show ring with them

Their money is as good as a client who has aspirations to enter the show ring and they love their offspring just as much.

I really think the key is diversification and flexibility to weather any economic downturns. Usually if one sector is hurting, another is still healthy. The disposable income is still very much “there”. Its tapping into the areas and clients that have it and aren’t afraid to spend it when things get a little lean in many areas

As far as what do I actually “earn” - I have no idea. I’d have to actually sit down with pen and paper and figure out my tangible and non tangible costs that factor into everything. Suffice to say though that I am completely happy with the fact that he pays his way, pays for every other horse on the property and pays the operating expenses with some money left over on an annual basis …

[ladyj79]

I’d say you can breed to unapproved or low quality stallions of any breed quite easily and cheaply. Please see the number of “wb-crosses” out of unapproved stock, as well as my personal favorite, the unlicensed friesian stallions now gifting the world with innumerable crosses. I was at a friend’s barn for the first time recently and she points to a non-descript drafty bay mare in a paddock and says “and we have a friesian cross.” My response? “Of course you do!”

And there’s a particular unlicensed stallion I come across frequently who wasn’t licensed “because of injury”, and literally every foal or young horse I see out of him is also unsound…including at inspections last year in Florida. Everyone I’ve ever seen. Unsound.

Lesson? Idiots will breed to cheap crap, regardless of location or breed or discipline.

[pinecone]

ladyj79, I hear what you’re saying but the point was that there are far less Warmblood stallions with stud fees in the $500-and-under range than there are Quarter Horses and Paint stallions with stud fees in the same range. When a Warmblood breeder started selling breedings on ebay for a couple hundred $'s it was noteworthy enough to get called out on FHOTD, whereas stud fees in that range are pretty normal for QH’s and Paints. That was the point. I could throw a rock and hit a half dozen QH or Paint stallion owners who’d be thrilled to get $500 for a breeding, but there aren’t even any Warmblood stallions in the nearby vicinity. Not even the crappy “American Warmblood” type.

Otherwise I tend to agree with you. Don’t get me started on backyard Friesian crosses rofl! There are a few breeders breeding really nice ones…and then there are the Friesian “heritage horses”. Yep, idiots will breed cheap crap :mad:

Please see the number of “wb-crosses” out of unapproved stock

Ok, so the mare is crap. The stallion may still be nice, approved, and with a stud fee in the $1000+ range, and the original discussion was about stud fees not the cheap crap backyard breeders are producing. Although I’ll give you an “amen, sister!” about the backyard crap!