Just Got Back from the Buck Brannaman Clinic

Long drive, hot days, GREAT clinic!

I won’t start with everything, a little at a time…

First, the most important thing I learned at this year’s clinic:

If your horse is not going the speed you are asking for, HE is moving YOUR feet.

I found that for myself, sort of, earlier this spring when my horse kept blowing past the cows at a gallop. I realized that if his feet were not going the speed I was asking for, I do not have him on a feel.

I’ll give some retrospectives here: The first year, the biggest thing I learned was that you aren’t done teaching the horse to do something (or asking something of him) until the horse is in a good frame of mind. Yes, you want his feet (or his body) to move in a particular way, and you might have to release on a very small try at first, but you will build a crappy attitude in the horse if you quit before he’s in a soft, just-gave-to-you frame of mind.

Second clinic (two years later), the most profound statement was, a small kick or a little squeeze is NOT A FEEL. It is essentially a nag- you ask via a gesture first, then follow up if it doesn’t happen with enough to get it done. No three step ask, tell, demand. No giving a small kick because you know a small life-up-in-your-body gesture won’t work- always start with a polite signal. And a tiny little squeeze is not a polite signal, and slowly increasing the strength of your squeeze is nagging.

At my first clinic, my horse was so ADHD that I was told not to ‘be polite’ and try to keep still so as not to disrupt the clinic, but to keep asking something of my horse as long as he couldn’t keep still or keep his attention on me…I was to be busier than a one-legged a$$ kicker.

This year was the first clinic where I was able to keep my horse giving me small gives, little moves, to keep my horse with me, while Buck talked.

Part of it helped that I was riding a colt, and we weren’t really encouraged to park our butts on the colt for an hour while Buck talked. So I was able to keep my colt giving laterally to the rein, taking a step back, taking a step forward, instead of checking out mentally. I’m a long way from having the horse all the time, but much closer than I was.

So anyway, I was able to get my horse on a feel and paying attention with much littler things, staying in, say, a 20x10 foot space rather than having small, disruptive kerfuffles. It’s so tempting to just let your horse sleep while you listen to Buck, but…not what you want to teach your horse to do.

You are obviously a trainable student.

You are obviously a trainable student.

Aw, you’re too kind.

The part I need to work on, is that I can be pushy and overbearing, getting into my teacher’s private space (physical or psychic) where I don’t belong.

Sounds great! I can relate to what you are saying because Mindy just told me that I had a “boring” contact with my mare, just being kind of “there” (as you said, nagging). It’s still tough for me sometimes to change my thoughts on contact, but being in a kind of hunter frame, with contact, is not what they have in mind!

How was Buck’s foot? I know he hurt it pretty badly a couple of weeks ago and wondered how he ever even got a boot back on it. :eek:

[QUOTE=Fillabeana;7064137]
Second clinic (two years later), the most profound statement was, a small kick or a little squeeze is NOT A FEEL. It is essentially a nag- you ask via a gesture first, then follow up if it doesn’t happen with enough to get it done. No three step ask, tell, demand. No giving a small kick because you know a small life-up-in-your-body gesture won’t work- always start with a polite signal. And a tiny little squeeze is not a polite signal, and slowly increasing the strength of your squeeze is nagging.[/QUOTE]

What is “a feel?” What is a “polite signal?”

if you are, for example, sitting still, what is the proper way to ask your horse to move forward? And if he doesn’t respond to your (feel? polite signal?), what do you do next?

Not trying to be argumentative, I just don’t understand what meaning you are attaching to these terms and need a translation.

Oh good, I was wondering the same thing :slight_smile:

Oh, I hope you can help with a Brannaman question, then.

He’s here giving a clinic and so far I “get it”-- all of it and how a dressager or hunter-maker like me might differ or do the same thing Brannaman describes in different terms.

That was all true until we go to the incredible reliance on over-bending the neck. I’m thinking of the ridden half-circle exercise. For those of you at home, imagine a turn on the forehand 180 degrees flowing into a turn on the haunches in the other direction for another 180. Imagine a really, really bad fish-tailing on ice.

Brannaman was all about bending the head 90 degrees first, then you add leg to get hind end to step around. To his credit, he later said “Leg first!” as a general philosophy. What I saw in the riders, however, was “pull the horse’s head around to your knee and kick if he hasn’t moved his hind end yet.”

Also, he talked a lot about the aids for this and much had to do with what you did with your inside hand.

So, if the goal is to ride the horse from your leg, and you won’t ever want him to go around so bent in the neck, why not teach riders to let go of the face sooner?

I’m going to audit his clinic in Cle Elum next weekend. Can’t wait!

“What is a Feel?”

Hard to define, and can be expressed properly in a zillion ways.

Do you jump?
Let’s say you have a nice hunter, that you can ride off your seat, and you are cantering along and you see a spot.
Your horse KNOWS you saw a spot, you sort of take back (or lengthen a bit) with your body rhythm changing a tiny bit, you leave the loop in your reins, and your horse takes the spot YOU saw.

Or maybe you trail ride, and you’re out where there’s no clear cut path and there’s a tree, or a sagebrush in your way. You think ‘left’, (your body responds with a really subtle signal that changes your body balance to go around to the left), and your horse goes left.

Or you have a cutting horse, and you identify the black whiteface steer to move out of the herd. Your horse knows you picked THAT steer out, (you may be looking at it rather intensely, your body is making subtle signals to follow THAT steer) so that when you have six or eight cows, he lets them fall back and keeps his focus on the black whiteface.

Or you have a cowhorse, and you are going to do a big stop. (Or a dressage horse, into a halt.) You find the place where your horse is balanced and listening, and stop your seat (you don’t follow the gait anymore), and the horse stops/halts without you picking up the reins.

If you are in a roundpen, or the horse is loose… You can indicate with your body, how much energy (go faster, perhaps) in a subtle way, and your horse follows that ‘hint’ into a trot, so you don’t crack a whip or spank the ground or anything.

A feel is the horse picking up on your idea, your intention, and following it.

It can also go the other way: the horse wants to move left, to graze or sniff noses with another horse. You (or maybe me, I spend a lllooooonnnnggg time not defending a space around my body) move your foot, because you see that the horse is planning to move HIS foot over, and you don’t want to get stepped on.

Or, you get home late and your friend forgot to feed the dog. Your dog greets you, then looks at his food dish- a subtle hint, unless you have a Lab who jumps up and down, picks up his food bowl, drops it at your feet and barks!

So, you can pick up on your horse’s subtle intentions, as well, and that would also be a feel.

if you are, for example, sitting still, what is the proper way to ask your horse to move forward? And if he doesn’t respond to your (feel? polite signal?), what do you do next?

There may not be just one ‘proper way to ask’ in terms of the actual signal you give to your horse to move forward- if you’re riding sidesaddle, it will involve different muscles.
Anyway, I would first make sure I have my horse’s attention, then pick my body up as though to follow a walk. Or, I might waggle my toes very subtly away from the horse’s side, indicating I want his life/energy to come up. That’s the polite ‘ask’.
Assuming my horse KNOWS that I want him to bring up his life, to go forward, etc…
If he ignores the polite, I will do enough to get my horse definitely forward, perhaps past walk and into trot. I’d thump him with my stirrups, probably. But how hard I kick, will depend on the horse. A really sensitive one, not much. A really dulled-to-the-leg, tolerant, blow-you-off horse, BIG kick. But always enough to get it done, in one fell swoop, so to speak.

I hope that was helpful.

Mvp, I’m not entirely sure I know the right answer to your question.
But I do know, you will NOT be expected to ever be riding your horse THAT bent anywhere else, except in the short-serpentine exercise.

My thoughts are, that horses cheat, in a lot of different ways, when asked to move their hindquarters. You want the horse coming forward with his front feet, but only a tiny bit. The horse’s front end should be ‘stopped’ from walking off, but his feet should not be pivoting on the ground- they have to maintain the walk rhythm. Sort of like a horse’s hindquarters in a canter pirouette- he’s still cantering, but his haunches aren’t ‘going’ anywhere.
Anyway, you also must have the horse taking his weight off the inside of his body, and a lot of horses can lean inwards, and still move their hindquarters properly (inside hind crossing in front of outside hind). That means there’s a brace in there.
So I think probably by bending the horse that sharply, the horse pretty much has to release the braces in his body.

Now, done wrong, when the person is first PULLING the horse’s nose around sideways, you are creating another brace…not good. You should not be pulling on the mouth at all, you should be picking up the rein and the horse follows his nose over 90 degrees to the side, and stepping over where your leg indicates.
Most people start by heaving the nose sideways (the horse often responds by tilting his head sideways, ears unlevel) and thumping his hindquarters across.
Done right, you ask lightly first, then take a hold of the rein to pull the nose sideways, and then release it when the horse gives sideways to the bit. (And moves his HQ across, you ask by putting your leg back, if the horse ignores you then you’ll have to thump him.) But you usually have to start small, asking his nose to follow your feel/rein sideways, he ignores, you take a hold of his mouth (NO JERKING THE REIN), and you release when you get a change involving the horse giving to the rein pressure.

Sort of like teaching the horse to lower his head with a halter and lead rope? You start by seeing if the horse will follow your hand on the halter downwards, he maybe has no clue. So you pull down on the halter rope. Then the horse really doesn’t know what to do, he picks his head up a foot farther…so you just wait until the horse tries and moves his head down a quarter inch, and release. Next pressure, your horse might put his head down an inch. Keep asking, and releasing when your horse tries, and pretty soon you can put his nose on the ground.

But no, we don’t want a horse bent that deeply anywhere but a few specific exercises.

When I read the OP, I got the impression that having “a feel” was akin to “on the aids” What Fillabeana described sounds like it, too.

Fillabeana, nice description.

Mvp, I have something to ask of you, if you’re brave enough.

I am making a guess answering your question as to why the horse is bent so deeply in the two exercises, moving HQ around in a circle, and a short serpentine.

You have the opportunity to ask your question of Buck directly, if you’ll be at the clinic. He does take questions from the audience, if his mounted participants don’t have one, at the clinics I’ve been to. You might have to yell just loud enough, “Buck??” after it is clear that his participants have no more questions, though, or he’ll just ride off to lunch. Raising your hand from the audience might not work. You may have to go stand up against the arena fence.

I’d like to know if I’m guessing along the right lines:
(To have the horse weight the outside of his body when he moves, and to keep him from bracing somewhere else in his body even if his HQ are stepping across properly.)
And, that there aren’t any places where you’re doing something athletic where you will want the horse bent that sharply. Maybe there IS a place to ask him to bend that deeply. If there is, I want to know!!

If you could report back with Buck’s reply, I would be most appreciative.

You are obviously a trainable student.

Foxtrot, I had to have a little laugh at my own expense about this one.
I FINALLY figured out this spring that it was a really bad idea to ever let my horse trot along faster than I wanted him to. Buck first told me (not in these words, but in about four other ways) that the horse needed to move his feet as though they were MY feet. In 2010. :smiley:
I’m persistent, anyway!

Ask and thou shalt receive, Fillabeana. I did ask my question from way up in the bleachers.

Besides not liking the question, his answer was that

  1. You got all that lateral flexion on the ground, first. If you thought you might be making the horse dull in the mouth of teaching him to do something you’d never need when he was finished, then you hadn’t gotten him soft enough on the ground and then (I supposed) in the bridle such that he’d turn his head 90 degrees (or more) for you and stay light.

  2. He went on to explain to me the progression one makes from snaffle to bosal to spade bit and said that you should get lateral flexion in the snaffle. (No sh!t, but also not the reason I was worried about the bent-hard necks).

I think I asked the question in a bad way because I have seen lots of horses made desperately dull by someone cranking the head around and not letting go at the right time. Also, I agree with Brannaman and so many other good horseman that the goal is to not hand ride. The goal is to eventually do less and less with your hand while the horse gets more and more educated to your seat and leg.

So why all the talk about where to put your inside hand for the turn on the forehand or turn on the haunches? And why have someone hold the horse’s head around and then have the rider kick him when he’s not moving fast enough (because that’s so physically hard for the horse)?

It seems to me that bending the neck is like loading a spring in the horse’s body. You bend the neck, add inside leg and let the horse unfold himself by moving his butt over/to the outside. Don’t think you got enough activity behind? IMO, the answer is more inside leg, not more inside hand.

If, on the other hand, you don’t let go when the poor animal is trying the best he can, but he’s stiff, dull to your leg, tired, very weak behind, he’ll learn to accept you pulling on his lips while you kick harder and harder. When a horse’s head is cranked around to his knee, it’s just about physically impossible for him to give you a response you want that tells you that he heard you-- a big reach deeper with his inside hind. So… when did you stop training him (e.g. there was a right answer the horse could give you) and when did you just start torturing him (e.g. he physically could not give you a response that would make you let go)?

I say all this because most of the riders didn’t have a soft feel in the inside rein. I have done this with horses in my lifetime, and things have gone better or worse depending how much I’m trying to let of of my hand ASAP.

Oh, and Brannaman did take a minute to talk about a horse who had learned to tilt his head as he curved his neck around. That was wrong. Ears need to be level. Brannaman called that trained-in response in a horse a “catastrophic” mistake. I think he is right. I also saw a few horses doing some of that. IMO, it comes from this kind of hand riding. Also I think these big, lateral bends are a “high stakes” game for those of us who tend to in the hand riding direction.

I hope I explained this well. If not, ask about the muddy parts.

Oh, please keep this going! Fascinating. I have followed Brannaman for a many years, then loved the documentary. Have never had the opportunity to actually make it to a clinic though, so am riveted on the detailed accounts. Like mvp, I see clearly that his good horsemanship is the same as ours in eventing or what have you but there are really interesting details I would like to learn more about. I very much like his encouragement of such fine-tuned subtlety and would be interested to learn what his success rate is with students attaining that.

An addendum to the last post:

You all should know that Brannaman and I are probably coming from different places. I’m worried about teaching horses and teaching people in a way that’s clear to them as well as fail-safe for the horse. A good, if obscure cowboy did teach me a fail-safe way to ask a horse to turn around without hanging on his face. So I know it can be done in a way that gets riders to use more leg, less hand and feel what the hind legs are doing. I think Brannaman wants his riders to do that. The talk about what you do with your hands is misleading.

Brannaman, for his part, assumes you can ride and feel stuff. He’s not engaged in developing a way of training a horse that any person off the street who pays their money and comes to his clinic can do. So he addresses problems as he sees them, but he won’t make a big deal out of the rider’s obligation to get feel and timing.

Today, he did recommend that no one undertake making a bridle horse unless they want to devote years to it. If you ride once or twice a week, set your goals on making a nice snaffle horse. No shame in that. Clearly, then, Brannaman knows riders might not be able to execute what he can.

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Thank you!

If, on the other hand, you don’t let go when the poor animal is trying the best he can, but he’s stiff, dull to your leg, tired, very weak behind, he’ll learn to accept you pulling on his lips while you kick harder and harder. When a horse’s head is cranked around to his knee, it’s just about physically impossible for him to give you a response you want that tells you that he heard you-- a big reach deeper with his inside hind. So… when did you stop training him (e.g. there was a right answer the horse could give you) and when did you just start torturing him (e.g. he physically could not give you a response that would make you let go)?

Yup. I saw once where a guy was just pulling harder and harder on his poor gelding. The horse had its head tilted completely sideways and nose around to the stirrup. And the horse had nowhere to go, and stopped responding altogether. So the rider started jerking the rein. The guy pretty much exploded his horse, and Buck’s apprentice at the time had to ride the horse for the next two days.

Something a little different about Buck’s teaching, and I’ve heard the same about Ray Hunt’s teaching. You might get the answers to your problems told to you repeatedly, but you are still having trouble- ie you either don’t think ‘it’ applies to your particular situation (like when he says you ALWAYS ask nicely, and then if you get no response you take a hold/do enough to get the job done, and then release when the horse responds). People very commonly just pull the horse’s nose around and kick, even though Buck has told the group twelve times per day, that they are to first ask nicely, then do what it takes.
Buck will often help someone that is in real trouble, like the horse is about to fall over/freak out. But he leaves it to you, to ride up and say, hey, my horse is getting worse here, what am I doing wrong? Or to figure out, when he says something, that he’s talking to YOU as well as five or six others in the group.
Last summer, he was telling his group to now walk on a loose rein (after doing some short serpentine). Three riders were afraid to let their reins loose. Buck did NOT say, “John, Mary, Sue, I said LOOSE rein, you need to lengthen your rein another 10 inches.” He rather said, “Three of you aren’t letting go. I said LOOSE rein.” Then told the group they’d be doing this-n-that until all his riders went on a loose rein when he asked them to.

So, Buck is waiting for YOU to figure out what applies to you. He’s talking a LOT, and usually what he says is designed to be helpful to most of his class. And learning to look within yourself for the answer, is what keeps you learning until next year, when hopefully these new things are working well for you.

I think far to many riders depend on their instructor or clinician to puppet them through maneuvers, and make things happen, and then the rider leaves, thinking he knows how to leg yield now, but can’t on his own at home.
This isn’t to say, sometimes you need some help with a particular maneuver, and your instructor will help set you up to find it, walk you through it.
But if you aren’t paying attention, and trying to figure out how something happens, you are often paying someone to push you on a swing in the playground, as it were. You get out on your own to school your horse, and you’re lost.

MVP, I think what you need to do is ride a horse in a Buck clinic, and see how it affects your horse. If you are doing these things right, it can be profound for your horse. I think a good horseman is absolutely to look, see what’s going on, and avoid a clinician that is going to screw up his horse. But really feeling how your horse is mentally and physically when these exercises get to working, will tell you if ‘Buck is right’ or not…ask the horse. And to be fair to the clinician, you have to participate and have the clinician pretty much tell you, ‘that’s what we are looking for’.
The changes in my OTTB were profound in my first Buck clinic. A couple of weeks later, I was lost and overhorsed again, but I knew that what we did in the clinic was what I wanted for both the horse and for me.
Some people won’t be able to ‘get it’ at a clinic, for one reason or another but what I’ve seen, is that even real novice riders who keep trying, asking, thinking, get a nice change. Buck doesn’t care how well you ride, but that you really try.

And D’Lee, Buck said his foot was black from dropping a manure spreader on it, but he was riding and walking and I didn’t see him limp. It must still hurt though!

So why all the talk about where to put your inside hand for the turn on the forehand or turn on the haunches?

Because you are trying to connect an ‘ask’ with the rein to a particular foot. If you hold your rein in the wrong place, or pull at the wrong time, the horse won’t maneuver around how and when you want him to. It’s about timing and directing the foot that’s in the air.

And why have someone hold the horse’s head around and then have the rider kick him when he’s not moving fast enough (because that’s so physically hard for the horse)?

Done wrong, you can make a mess. You are trying to get the horse to easily step under, laterally behind.
Because done right, you are creating a lateral softness in the horse. When you pick up a rein asking the horse to bend right, his nose should follow softly, his ribcage should bend, and his inside hind leg should step under his body laterally.
A horse doesn’t move around a circle by his hind feet following his front wheels like a train on tracks. He goes around a corner like a gurney in a hospital, or a big orange cart in Costco. Yes, his neck bends and his ribcage bends a bit, but he can’t make the corner in a balanced manner unless his hindquarters move laterally in the opposite direction you turn his nose.

With respect to Fillabeana’s post above about how Brannaman teaches. I think he could do a tad better sometimes with respect to teaching we amateurs the body awareness any rider needs to do the kind of training he wants.

I did try a bunch of things I saw today on my broke-to-death retired show hunter. He easily backed up with me lowering one hand at a time when he had moved that front leg.

The Turn on the Forehand to Turn on the Haunches thing worked well, too, though I used my hands differently. I figured out why I do that. (It has to do with how we used the outside rein in English world; and that’s the same reason Brannaman doesn’t work on shoulder-fores while that movement is useful to dressagers. I’ll explain if you want).

Then I tried figuring out how to use my inside hand only and differently as Brannaman tried to tell the riders today. He talked about two different positions for each of those turns, but related that to the horse’s body. Personally, I don’t think the rider can feel that. But he can feel where he is putting his hand with respect to his own body. So I thought about how I’d have someone notice that.

What worries me is that some guy in his clinic got his horse as screwed up as you say. A horse who has let you jerk his mouth after his head is all the way around is very, very damaged. One who explodes is a little less damaged. How did the guy progress that far in the clinic?

Was that clinic huge? The one here is. There are 40 or so horses in the ring. Given the logic of Brannaman’s training and the time spent on each exercise, I think it would be hard to ride in one of his clinics.

[QUOTE=mvp;7069974]

Was that clinic huge? The one here is. There are 40 or so horses in the ring. Given the logic of Brannaman’s training and the time spent on each exercise, I think it would be hard to ride in one of his clinics.[/QUOTE]

Wow, seriously?? That’s a LOT of horses. I’m riding in September and there isn’t supposed to be more than 25. Last time I rode there was about 18, but that was H2 and this year I’m riding in H1 since the other was a colt starting. :frowning:

[QUOTE=DLee;7070082]
Wow, seriously?? That’s a LOT of horses. I’m riding in September and there isn’t supposed to be more than 25. Last time I rode there was about 18, but that was H2 and this year I’m riding in H1 since the other was a colt starting. :([/QUOTE]

Yup. Even 25 would be large with respect to these exercises and how long the class is left to do them or walk around keeping their horses soft.

Do you think 3 hours on a horse at a walk is mentally hard for them? Or one of these deep bending exercises repeated over and over is hard? I don’t usually ride that way, so I don’t know.

I think Brannaman is showing his clinics each of these moves and then the working rider at home applies them as needed.

He’s pretty good at spotting someone having trouble, so maybe 18 or 25 students is the right number for riders in the clinic.