Thank you expressing yourself so thoughtfully. To clarify Rob does not want to misidentify a bit. The point is to explain the circumstances in which a man of his experience could misidentify something he normally would not. I’ve seen clinics where a trainer is tired and tells a kid to jump the brick while pointing to the picket. Then they correct themselves and everyone understands because we all have those moments.
So to clarify, my comments about Rob being tired on that one evening, for the evaluation we are discussing, are regarding the one time he called a bit by the wrong name.
I’m not condoning the use of anything whatsoever. I merely stated that Perfect Prep is legal I addressed intent, etc., as well in those comments. I am happy to clarify my meaning. We are saying Rob will verify his intent. We all have our own versions of what some else “meant” Rob will speak for his own intent when he is able to check in.
[QUOTE=Beowulfnk;7648101]
She said “no one could could fire her up to win, no one could inspire her to raise the level of her riding and her confidence in her horse and herself like Rob Gage.”
<snip>
Rob doesn’t think he is perfect, but he is 100% sincere about helping riders and horses. [/QUOTE]
In my very limited experience with Rob, I would agree with these statements. He gave 100% even when teaching my little 2’6" - 2’9" self and inspired me to work harder and do more. I’ve ridden with BNTs that I would never go back to. I would ride with Rob again in a second. He was tough but didn’t belittle me and his energy is unbelievable.
He makes no apologies for suggesting a crest release, that is his personal preference.
I have no problem with the Crest Release. It doesn’t interfere with the horse, so honestly, I don’t get why people are all up in arms over it. IT works, the horse’s are happy, so keep it up. Recommending it over a properly executed automatic is a different matter. If a rider is doing a lovely auto, then they should continue on using whatever release works for the moment.
Regarding the legality of Perfect Prep:
<snip>
But after speaking to several USEF judges, as of this moment, at this hour of this day, Perfect prep is NOT Illegal. This a calmative supplement that is legal. I understand the point about “intent” regarding performance enhancement.
According to the rules, it is not legal. Anything given for the express purpose of altering a horse’s performance, except in therapuetic cases, is illegal. Just because USEF hasn’t specifically said PP is illegal, doesn’t mean it is legal. The logic does not follow.
If I wrote to the USEF and said: ‘My horse gets nervous and a bit tense at a shows so I would like to give him Perfect Prep about an hour before I go into the ring to calm him down. Is that legal?’ What do you think the answer would be? Maybe someone needs to do that to put this thing to bed. If I’m wrong, great. If not, shame on everyone who has been pushing the boundaries because PP wasn’t specifically named.
But practically everything we do could be construed as such. Injections like H/A “enhance” a horses performance, it too, is legal. But are we eviscerating everyone who enhances their horses comfort with H/A as irresponsibly encouraging “performance altering enhancements?” Exaggerating again, the next thing you know petting a nervous horse could be construed as “calmative intent.”
The USEF rule books allows for therapuetic uses of things like H/A, so your exaggeration is faulty from the start. Things like Dex and Robaxin are allowed for therapuetic purposes, even though they can have calming effects.
Unless something used for calming meets the requirements of a therapuetic agent as outlined in the USEF rulebook, it is illegal to give…EVEN IF it has not been specifically called out as illegal.
I think USEF is aware that there is an ACTUAL slippery slope (not just a hypothetical one) regarding supplements like PP since pretty much everything we do with our horses is for the express purpose of calming and relaxing them. Feed, supplements, joint injections, lunging, management programs, etc. “Horse has been bucking >> inject his joints >> he had an issue that was corrected by the injections and he behaves much better now!” is not all that different from “Horse has been agitated >> magnesium supplement >> he had a deficiency that was making him behave as such and now that it’s been corrected he behaves better.”
You cannot unequivocally state that it’s illegal. That is your interpretation of the rules and one that USEF does not currently seem to share.
[QUOTE=french fry;7648479]
You cannot unequivocally state that it’s illegal. That is your interpretation of the rules and one that USEF does not currently seem to share.[/QUOTE]
And we know that the USEF does not share the interpretation?
There are drugs, medications, procedures that improve a horse’s life that are not available in any other way. You cannot train your way to less painful hocks in an older horse. A stiff, tight back can only be relaxed so much on its own. When something is given for the benefit of the horse…not the human…it is usually recognized as such and allowed within limits. When the drug/medication’s sole purpose is for the rider’s best interest, well, that’s a different story
And again, your opinion that PP is solely for the rider and not the horse is just that - an opinion.
I agree that there is a gray area here but to unequivocally state that Rob is promoting administering illegal substances is a stretch and pretty damn close to libel. (Cue meupatdoes coming at me about not knowing what libel is, blah blah.)
[QUOTE=Belmont;7648146]
Only photo’s are free now. Getting a video judged costs $35. So, that girl just paid $35 to get told that she should try a calming supplement.[/QUOTE]
The video was posted before the $35 update, so it was free.
[QUOTE=french fry;7648490]
And again, your opinion that PP is solely for the rider and not the horse is just that - an opinion.
I agree that there is a gray area here but to unequivocally state that Rob is promoting administering illegal substances is a stretch and pretty damn close to libel. (Cue meupatdoes coming at me about not knowing what libel is, blah blah.)[/QUOTE]
Doesn’t seem gray to me. From the USEF (https://www.usef.org/documents/EquineWelfare/12HourRuleFAQ.pdf):
Please explain why it is illegal (dangerous) to use a calming element (drug) on a horse to improve its safety and performance?
It is the Federation’s viewpoint that while it is not necessarily wrong to sedate (calm) a horse for a specific therapeutic purpose or to contribute to its safety as the result of a
trauma or stress, it does significantly endanger equine health and wellbeing. It also violates the concept of “fair play,” upon which this Federation’s principles in sport is founded; to unnecessarily and artificially affect mentation (level of attention and clarity of focus) in a horse strictly for competitive gain, or to “improve its performance” in the
show ring, is therefore against the Federation’s rules.
Thank you RugBug, you points are salient and thoughtfully expressed. The point of my exaggeration was just that. I was going over the top to illustrate a point of what has been happening in this thread. I absolutely understand what people are saying about BNT’S comments being far reaching. Their perceived intent can be misconstrued easily. So only when Rob can respond, will we know what he intended to say. Again thank you for bringing some much needed levity to this conversation.
Hi . It’s not my interpretation, I asked USEF Judges “is it illegal as of today” and they said no. My comments were regarding that context specifically.
RugBug, we’ve been around in circles on this. It is a supplement, not a narcotic. I take it that you report exhibitors who up their horse’s roughage/lower their grain or otherwise change their feed/supplement program in an effort to find the balance that produces a calmer horse.
I don’t use it. My friends don’t use it. I have no dog in this fight. But to call it unequivocally illegal is your interpretation of a rule that is left open-ended for a reason. Perhaps tomorrow USEF will come out and declare it illegal. But to assume that they’re unaware of it and the way people use it is silly.
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Wow…the fact that people are going on this witch hunt and trying to destroy someone’s career over this is…astounding. And this is someone ethical who genuinely cares about horses and riders, when there are so many in this industry who are not.
I give my horse alfalfa and grain at shows. I specifically do this to give him energy and improve his performance. I’m sure there are all sorts of things in there like b vitamins and magnesium. Perhaps one of you should report me to the USEF.
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[QUOTE=Beowulfnk;7648508]
Hi French Fry. It’s not my interpretation, I asked USEF Judges “is it illegal as of today” and they said no. My comments were regarding that context specifically.[/QUOTE]
Beowulfnk, I think you may have misinterpreted my post. RugBug and others are insistent that it is illegal, which I think is simply their interpretation of the rule, not a fact. I am more inclined to believe the USEF judges you asked rather than some random internet posters.
I agree that there is a gray area here but to unequivocally state that Rob is promoting administering illegal substances is a stretch and pretty damn close to libel. (Cue meupatdoes coming at me about not knowing what libel is, blah blah.)
Uh. Okay okay - we are talking about illegal substances per the USEF. The rules are pretty clear - if you are recommending a calmative agent with the intent of using it to alter the horse’s performance, it’s an illegal substance. That’s not libel, that’s…truth.
He didn’t say “the horse looks sore, so you might want to give him some PP” or “that horse looks magnesium deficient, so you might want to give him some PP”.
I’m really confused that anyone would be confused at this.
Nothing is ILLEGAL…it is impermissible or against the rules. Legality and Illegality equal legal terminology.
Bottom line perfect prep alters the equine or you wouldn’t give it and it was recommended by Gage as an attempt to alter the equine.
It is just sad that the recommendation was made in the first place but if Gage owns his comments then so be it. Why hasn’t the chronicle done a story as a follow up
[QUOTE=Beowulfnk;7648508]
Hi . It’s not my interpretation, I asked USEF Judges “is it illegal as of today” and they said no. My comments were regarding that context specifically.[/QUOTE]
Personally, I would think going to USEF directly or even to stewards would make more sense than asking judges.
[QUOTE=Beowulfnk;7648508]
Hi . It’s not my interpretation, I asked USEF Judges “is it illegal as of today” and they said no. My comments were regarding that context specifically.[/QUOTE]
A USEF judge isn’t the USEF Drugs & Medication Committee. While Perfect Prep doesn’t contain any of the substances listed on the published list of Forbidden Substances examples, that doesn’t automatically make it “legal.”
Good lord. Don’t be confused. It’s a gray area! The idea is that if the horse is magnesium deficient it will help, if not it won’t do anything. A magnesium deficiency is a legitimate thing. PP is not a sedative. It’s a supplement.
I’m curious as to whether you think it should be necessary for exhibitors to submit their daily feeding/supplement programs so officials can ascertain whether that vegetable oil they’re getting could have a calming effect on the horse.
I am curious as to whether the posters who believe that PP is allowable per USEF rules for use as a calming agent also believe that IV magnesium is show legal (or was prior to the new rules on administering injections at shows).
Re the comment to “get an eq horse”…While I think the PP comment was irresponsible, RG didn’t actually offer any of the advice the rider was seeking-- how to stay with her horse better and smooth out the ride. Having ridden many green horses in Big Eq classes, the answer is also not to just get a better horse. Wouldn’t we all love to have access to the top schoolmaster eq horses. I think this horse is not a bad type for the equitation classes. He is just green. The response shouldn’t have been 1) full of errors, 2) advocating a calming supplement that isn’t going to solve this rider’s primary problems with this horse (horse is behind the leg, on the forehand, and rider is riding backwards) even if it does work to calm the horse (rider may still ride backwards to the chip even if her horse is slower/calmer/less strong), and 3) telling her to get a better mount. Not all of us can afford the top equitation horses yet we have goals to make it at that level. The advice the rider was looking for what she could do to help both her and her horse perform better over these types of courses. I don’t have to have the background or experience of RG to expect his answer to have something to do with her riding. The advice not only opened a can of worms regarding shortcuts vs hard work but didn’t even begin to legitimately offer advice that the rider can work with. PP won’t help her stay with the horse’s motion over the fence. And while “get an Eq horse” might have been tongue in cheek, how about using JMR to offer actual riding tips? Such as, your horse may be too green/not the best type/too strong/etc. for this level still but here’s what you can do to work with what you’ve got. I get that it is a free advice forum, but that doesn’t mean that you don’t have to be careful about what you say, although what is most disappointing to me is that the rider in this instance got none of the constructive advice she was seeking, whether or not others would have agreed with that advice. Instead, she got some irrelevant and controversial comments not at all directed to her riding.
