Just tell the kids to use "Perfect Prep"

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=Trevelyan96;7650410]
My point is that many inexperienced horses are likely to not be themselves at a show, and a small amount of a calming supplement is most likely only going to have the effect of making them act ‘normal’ and give them positive mileage. I just don’t see it as an attempt to cheat if you’re trying to help your horse to be able to be who he normally is in a strange environment that is likely to make make him more apprehensive and excitable. IME, eventually, most horses settle down and need nothing after a few good experiences - and most of the people I’ve seen use a supplement only do it for their first few shows.

If they don’t have basic training and manners installed at home, PP is not going to make them look any better, because they still don’t know how to respond to aids. Ditto for the rider - having a horse that is dull to the aids is not going to ‘enhance’ your performace, and if you’re a poor rider - its going to highlight that fact very clearly!

I’m just very reluctant to assign motive or intent, and I think the USEF should do what they need to do so that competitors don’t start feeling paranoid and suspicious of each other. It does the industry no good to have its participants accusing each other of cheating over something that can and should be more clearly defined.[/QUOTE]

And 3 gr bute might make a lame horse “normal.” Getting to normal isn’t the measuring stick,

[woodhillsmanhattan]

[QUOTE=BeeHoney;7650283]
Trev, you are talking about a very different situation. This horse and rider were perfectly safe and in the process of getting show miles in a fairly normal manner. I’m also not out to vilify the judge in this scenario. The main problem was that he said what a lot of people think (but don’t come right out and say), which is, if you are having trouble with a horse you need to work on your prep (meds, supplements, lunging) routine instead of working on training.

So here, even when there is a horse and rider who each are lovely and have a lot of potential but clearly a few things to work on and who don’t seem to have quite worked out their partnership–the first comment is go get yourself magic supplement X to fix the problem. It’s just a little sad to me when a judge comes right out and admits that before you even address riding and training issues you need to do something to get that horse quieted down. It’s the truth, though–a sedated look is rewarded well in the modern show ring. It’s not this particular judge’s fault that this is the current trend/style. It’s something that we as an industry need to fix.

I’m so glad that this conversation is being had because I think that the change that we need has to come from a change in the judging. People would focus more on training and less on “prep” if overly quiet or sedate horses were penalized, and horses with a little more style and energy were rewarded. I hope that the neither the judge in question nor JMR take offense at this thread. I don’t think that it was intended to criticize the judge or JMR but rather to spark spark discussion and change.[/QUOTE]

Bravo!

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=Windsor1;7650447]
It’s not remotely relevant to me personally, but arguments that PP does not work effectively serve to excuse its use. And much of this thread, as far as I can tell, is about whether and when its use ought to be excused, or allowed, or ignored, or what have you.

Interestingly, one of the testimonials at the Perfect Products website praises Perfect Prep because it reduces the amount of lunging she feels she has to do with a horse with “old tendon injuries.” Now I understand that that isn’t the reason why Rob Gage recommended it, but that would still seem to be a pretty positive reason for using it that doesn’t involve just pinning higher in a class.[/QUOTE]

God forbid a horse with old tendon issues get a job that suits it without a chemical elixer or old fashioned grinding down??!!

[RugBug]

@Trevelyan96;7650383

I think the accusations of cheating are a bit much. Is calmness really considered ‘performancing enhancing’? Does anyone seriously feel that taking an unusual or uncharastic edge off a horse will make it jump higher, rounder, snap its knees up to its eyeballs or stretch out to give you a big enough stride to make 4 in the line instead of the 5 stride chip? Seriously? (rollseyes) Drugging it to the point where it doesn’t know it has an injury, yes, but giving it a supplement that makes it act like the same horse you ride week in/week out at home is just showing what he’s normally like.

While a calming supplement may not turn your average jumping horse into Rox Dene, relieving tension does positively affect performance. I can’t believe are arguing that it doesn’t. A stiff, tense horse is not going to perform at its best…whatever that best may be. A calm, relaxed horse has better odds of performing at its best. It’s why we all talk about getting show miles on them. You can relieve the tension by taking them to lots of shows so they understand it’s no big deal or you can pull out a tube that may or may not work, or a combination of both.

[Windsor1]

[QUOTE=vxf111;7650479]
God forbid a horse with old tendon issues get a job that suits it without a chemical elixer or old fashioned grinding down??!![/QUOTE]

Not having spoken with the horse’s owner, I have no idea what other viable options there might have been for it.

But you could apply the reduced wear-and-tear argument to any horse, with or without tendon issues. I’m not advocating or condemning the product’s use, just allowing for the possibility (one I hadn’t considered) that it could have positive applications, even at a show, that don’t specifically or primarily have to do with enhancing performance.

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=Windsor1;7650495]
Not having spoken with the horse’s owner, I have no idea what other viable options there might have been for it.

But you could apply the reduced wear-and-tear argument to any horse, with or without tendon issues. I’m not advocating or condemning the product’s use, just allowing for the possibility (one I hadn’t considered) that it could have positive applications, even at a show, that don’t specifically or primarily have to do with enhancing performance.[/QUOTE]

It’s just a sad argument, because it assumes the only choices are among evils. Perfect Prep is great because it prevents the need to lunge to death. That person seems oblivious to other options like… maybe do NEITHER. I realize it’s not you making the argument, its the testimonial… but it’s SAD. It’s like a college kid saying “I endorse this energy drink because when I drink it I don’t have to use so much cocaine to stay awake and study.” The third option is… do NEITHER, change your habits so neither is necessary. It really makes me sad that someone with a horse that appears slightly fragile thinks the only options are dope the horse into being quiet or lunge it to death. How about-- letting it step down a level, or just be a practice horse at home, or do the jumpers-- or a million other things that are better options.

[Windsor1]

[QUOTE=vxf111;7650542]
It’s just a sad argument, because it assumes the only choices are among evils. Perfect Prep is great because it prevents the need to lunge to death. That person seems oblivious to other options like… maybe do NEITHER. I realize it’s not you making the argument, its the testimonial… but it’s SAD. It’s like a college kid saying “I endorse this energy drink because when I drink it I don’t have to use so much cocaine to stay awake and study.” The third option is… do NEITHER, change your habits so neither is necessary. It really makes me sad that someone with a horse that appears slightly fragile thinks the only options are dope the horse into being quiet or lunge it to death. How about-- letting it step down a level, or just be a practice horse at home, or do the jumpers-- or a million other things that are better options.[/QUOTE]

So whether the horse steps down a level or becomes a practice horse or gets the Perfect Prep, whichever option you choose, we’re talking about reducing the physical demands placed on the horse, right? So as long as the Perfect Prep (which you yourself said has a “very minimal calming effect”) doesn’t negatively affect the horse’s well being in any way, it certainly doesn’t strike me as any more evil than the many other things horse people do all the time to extend their horses’ competitive and useful lives.

[vxf111]

I am not sure I agree that mind altering an animal (even mildly) doesn’t take some toll. The horse is dull but still has to perform. That’s not reducing wear and tear.

And if PP is ok… How 'bout a little Ace… Or Dex… Or Magnesium injected??? Where does it stop?

[hntrjmprpro45]

It all boils down to ethics… How much prep (drugs, lunging, endless warm up classes) is enough and how much is too much? Where do we draw the line between “sophisticated use” and “excessive use” of tack and equipment (martingales, draw reins, bits, etc)? And my favorite, how lame is too lame?

Everyone will have some different opinions, but personally for me, I will always try to err on the side of caution when it comes to horse welfare. And I would hope other professionals would as well.

[Windsor1]

[QUOTE=vxf111;7650662]
I am not sure I agree that mind altering an animal (even mildly) doesn’t take some toll. The horse is dull but still has to perform. That’s not reducing wear and tear.[/QUOTE]

Less lunging is less lunging. Not to mention that a horse that is stepped down or used as a practice horse at home (your suggested alternatives) also still has to perform.

@vxf111;7650662

And if PP is ok… How 'bout a little Ace… Or Dex… Or Magnesium injected??? Where does it stop?

I didn’t say PP was ok. I said that preventing the wear and tear of lunging “would still seem to be a pretty positive reason for using it that doesn’t involve just pinning higher in a class.” I have no idea whether the person who gave the testimonial is doing right by her horse in their specific circumstances. I don’t know nearly enough about her situation or her horse’s tendon issues (or PP, for that matter) to pass judgment on her horsemanship here.

[vxf111]

Windsor, I know YOU didn’t say PP is ok. My point is, if it’s okay to do some sort of chemical calming… where do you draw the line? I’m not attributing the comment to you (or even the testimonial person in specific) I’m talking in the abstract.

I think you’re being a little obtuse/literal. When I say “be a practice horse” or “step down a level” I assume that’s a level at which the horse no longer needs the chemical alteration or miles on the lunge line to perform. They’re just examples of the overall theme which is instead of trying to make a round peg fit into a square hole by any means necessary, find it a round hole.

[Lady_Eboshi]

Maybe what we REALLY should be chewing the rag about are judging standards, in both hunters and dressage these days, that demand that one turn a living animal into the appearance of a piece of automatic precision machinery.

It’s way past time everyone questioned THAT.

Really.

[MHM]

[QUOTE=Midge;7650431]
I would also think a kerfuffle on a public BB is not the most important thing on his plate…[/QUOTE]
Inconceivable!

[HappyTalk]

[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;7650887]
Maybe what we REALLY should be chewing the rag about are judging standards, in both hunters and dressage these days, that demand that one turn a living animal into the appearance of a piece of automatic precision machinery.

It’s way past time everyone questioned THAT.

Really.[/QUOTE]

I believe that is the heart of the issue. Just look at what had happened to QHs and TWHs over the years and how artificial that has become.

[asterix]

Ah, but then we get judges on here saying they won’t be hired if they don’t pin the quiet round…and show managers saying no one will come…and trainers saying they will lose clients if their underprepared and over horsed ammies can’t fly in on the weekend and win on their prepped horses…

Doing the right thing is sometimes difficult, costly, or lonely. But for the rider, at a minimum, engaged in an entirely recreational sport that relies on the trust and good nature of the horse, s/he has a choice. Walk the walk. If you can’t have fun and meet your goals (including competitive ones, where someone else’s deep pockets or lack of moral compass gives them an advantage) doing the right thing, go find another way to enjoy being a horse person.

[Linny]

I agree with Lady Eboshi. Standards have become extreme. Every year there is a big confab and everyone says “Yes, lets allow the hunters to be expressive!” and the crowd cheers and the horses with the slowest, biggest canter still win.

A few pages back someone mentioned just becoming an “R” judge. They mentioned that as a new “R” judge, looking to build a reputation and earn jobs isn’t going to be the one to alter any standards. I sympathize. It seems that if the BNJ’s (many of whom are also BNT’s) are not going to make a change, nothing will happen.

The idea that using a calming drug is justified by saying is saves wear and tear is inane. Like humans, horses need correct exercises to develop the muscles and practice to develop the muscle memory. Those lovely EQ horses that go into the ring and handle all those challenges didn’t get there with “calming” they got there with practice. The EQ horse negotiating a tricky line or turn is using muscle memory ingrained from practice, jumping tricky lines, turning tight. Those actions are, by definition, hard. You may calm him artificially so that he doesn’t react to the scary looking jumps or panic on a tight rollback, but it hasn’t taught him anything.

The horse in the video is gorgeous. I don’t think any of us would kick him out. He’s green. He needs to me “made,” not calmed. I see it as a sad state of affairs when a fat old ammy like myself can see that and a BNT can’t or won’t. We always lament the lack of horsemanship todays kids show. “They don’t want to make up young horses!” “They can’t really RIDE!” Well, this kid seems to want to learn what she can do to improve her horse and a BNT says “meds!” Clearly the young rider thinks that “Whoa!” is a bit of a simplistic answer, but I wonder if that is all she’s getting from the trainer?

[Windsor1]

[QUOTE=vxf111;7650873]
Windsor, I know YOU didn’t say PP is ok. My point is, if it’s okay to do some sort of chemical calming… where do you draw the line? I’m not attributing the comment to you (or even the testimonial person in specific) I’m talking in the abstract.[/QUOTE]

Where you draw the line varies from one horse to the next depending on a million different factors, not the least of which is the ethics of the person doing the drawing. It’s no different from the kinds of decisions that are made all the time, as hntrjmprpro45 pointed out, with regard to “how much prep (drugs, lunging, endless warm up classes) is enough and how much is too much? Where do we draw the line between “sophisticated use” and “excessive use” of tack and equipment (martingales, draw reins, bits, etc)? And my favorite, how lame is too lame?” Good, thought-provoking questions.

@vxf111;7650873

I think you’re being a little obtuse/literal.

And I think you did a curious turnaround from minimizing the effects of Perfect Prep yesterday to then referring to it as “doping” and “mind altering” after I mentioned the testimonial. Not sure why.

@vxf111;7650873

When I say “be a practice horse” or “step down a level” I assume that’s a level at which the horse no longer needs the chemical alteration or miles on the lunge line to perform. They’re just examples of the overall theme which is instead of trying to make a round peg fit into a square hole by any means necessary, find it a round hole.

Do you feel the same way about all the veterinary intervention that happens with competitive horses to keep them sound and comfortable doing what they do? Why or why not? If someone uses PP under the supervision of a vet, is it still wrong?

You could very well be right that the person who gave the testimonial is not doing the right thing. But again, I don’t think you can make that judgment with so little information as to the particulars of her case AND in light of all the other “accepted” forms of intervention that allow people to keep doing what they’re doing with a horse instead of finding it a new job.

[poltroon]

Not to pick on anyone, but the alternative I use to lunging my horse… is to ride it. In the arena, outside the arena, long walks, whatever.

It does take some time. But that’s why I have horses: because I like being with them.

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=Windsor1;7651070]
Where you draw the line varies from one horse to the next depending on a million different factors, not the least of which is the ethics of the person doing the drawing. It’s no different from the kinds of decisions that are made all the time, as hntrjmprpro45 pointed out, with regard to “how much prep (drugs, lunging, endless warm up classes) is enough and how much is too much? Where do we draw the line between “sophisticated use” and “excessive use” of tack and equipment (martingales, draw reins, bits, etc)? And my favorite, how lame is too lame?” Good, thought-provoking questions.

And I think you did a curious turnaround from minimizing the effects of Perfect Prep yesterday to then referring to it as “doping” and “mind altering” after I mentioned the testimonial. Not sure why.

Do you feel the same way about all the veterinary intervention that happens with competitive horses to keep them sound and comfortable doing what they do? Why or why not? If someone uses PP under the supervision of a vet, is it still wrong?

You could very well be right that the person who gave the testimonial is not doing the right thing. But again, I don’t think you can make that judgment with so little information as to the particulars of her case AND in light of all the other “accepted” forms of intervention that allow people to keep doing what they’re doing with a horse instead of finding it a new job.[/QUOTE]

To me, keeping a horse sound has at least an element of being in his own best interest. Keeping a horse dull/quiet (unless it’s a layup horse on stall rest or similar situation) is not. And competition should be about more than squeezing every horse into the exact same mold. There ought to be some partnership and demonstration of work.

And the USEF has guidelines about these substances. Only so much NSAID given at this time. Anything injection given on the showgrounds has to be given by a vet.

I’ve been ENTIRELY CONSISTENT. I think Perfect Prep has a mind altering/calming effect. I think it is minimal, but it is present. And I am talking GENERALLY about calming substances, not JUST perfect prep. Many of which have SIGNIFICANT calming/mind altering effects. I’ve mentioned the slippery slope more than once. I am well past the very very narrow example that you seem stuck in.

And again, I am talking generally and not specifically about that testimonial-- which is a 2 sentence blurb from a stranger I never met.

[Lady_Eboshi]

[QUOTE=Linny;7651057]
I agree with Lady Eboshi. Standards haves become extreme. Every year there is a big confab and everyone says “Yes, lets allow the hunters to be expressive!” and the crowd cheers and the horses with the slowest, biggest canter still wins.

A few pages back someone mentioned just becoming an “R” judge. They mentioned that as a new “R” judge, looking to build a reputation and earn jobs isn’t going to be the one to alter any standards. I sympathize. It seems that if the BNJ’s (many of whom are also BNT’s) are not going to make a change, nothing will happen.

The idea that using a calming drug is justified by saying is saves wear and tear is inane. Like humans, horses need correct exercises to develop the muscles and practice to develop the muscle memory. Those lovely EQ horses that go into the ring and handle all those challenges didn’t get there with “calming” they got there with practice. The EQ horse negotiating a tricky line or turn is using muscle memory ingrained from practice, jumping tricky lines, turning tight. Those actions are, by definition, hard. You may calm him artificially so that he doesn’t react to the scary looking jumps or panic on a tight rollback, but it hasn’t taught him anything.

The horse in the video is gorgeous. I don’t think any of us would kick him out. He’s green. He needs to me “made,” not calmed. I see it as a sad state of affairs when a fat old ammy like myself can see that and a BNT can’t or won’t. We always lament the lack of horsemanship todays kids show. “They don’t want to make up young horses!” “They can’t really RIDE!” Well, this kid seems to want to learn what she can do to improve her horse and a BNT says “meds!” Clearly the young rider thinks that “Whoa!” is a bit of a simplistic answer, but I wonder if that is all she’s getting from the trainer?[/QUOTE]

You’ve GOT it, in a nutshell! The problem is the trainers want a quick fix, because it’s the quickest way to cashing the check written by people who don’t care because they don’t know any better. Not saying they’re ALL like that, but lots of places it’s become the default.