Perfect Prep is not specifically illegal. Yes, there is a (valid, IMO) argument that it violates the spirit of the rule if not the letter, but I don’t know of anyone who would hide their use of it. Sometimes there is a fine line between a supplement that, say, corrects a perceived magnesium deficiency and “ZOMGZ BEHAVIOR ALTERING DRUG.”
I don’t use PP but I don’t clutch my pearls over it either.
I found this interesting.
https://www.usef.org/documents/EquineWelfare/12HourRuleFAQ.pdf
From the above link:
Is there or will there be a test for magnesium?
Research for a test for excessive magnesium administration is currently underway.
Is there or will there be a test for calcium?
The detection of administration of excessive amounts of calcium is associated with the magnesium test research.
My mare is not showing at the moment (had surgery and then had an “unknown trauma” in her pasture) but is on Quiessence to help with the muscular soreness/problems she has had as a result of the “trauma.” How will they figure out if a horse is on magnesium for a legitimate reason vs. for the calming effect?
And Perfect Prep is mentioned by name in this document with no mention of it violating the spirit of the rule. That actually surprised me because that is the standard line from USEF.
[QUOTE=french fry;7647951]
Perfect Prep is not specifically illegal. Yes, there is a (valid, IMO) argument that it violates the spirit of the rule if not the letter, but I don’t know of anyone who would hide their use of it. Sometimes there is a fine line between a supplement that, say, corrects a perceived magnesium deficiency and “ZOMGZ BEHAVIOR ALTERING DRUG.”[/QUOTE]
I would like to hear the trainers who go through tubes and tubes of the stuff tell me with a straight face that every horse in their barn with a smudge of yellow on the corner of its lips has a magnesium deficiency.
Haven’t read the whole thread, but a judge of Mr. Gage’s standing publicly telling a junior rider to administer an illegal substance to her horse is a shameful problem.
I think the idea is that if Perfect Prep works it is because of a magnesium deficiency?
I don’t know, I don’t use the stuff. That is the reasoning I’ve heard from anyone who has put their horse on a long term magnesium supplement; that it won’t work on a horse that doesn’t have a deficiency.
So if a horse has a deficiency that makes it nervous/jittery/strong/hyper/whatever and the MG supplement helps, is it drugging or correcting a deficiency?
But if it’s really true that many, many horses at these shows are given PP, are you saying they all legitmately have a Mg deficiency? Because I have to say I can’t think of anyone I know in eventing or dressage whose horse has such a deficiency. Does not pass the sniff test.
Furthermore, even if scientifically, giving a Mg supplement to a horse without a deficiency does not produce a behavioral change, the rule is not about result but intent.
Again, does not pass the sniff test.
As wild as my mare was last week, I would say the Quiessence wasn’t really helping - LOL (Again, she is NOT showing. Has not even jumped for over a year due to the surgery and “pasture trauma.”)
And I have heard the same thing that magnesium only works if they are deficient. But, I have actually seen horses on Perfect Prep and it did seem to make a difference. Not like they suddenly acted like they were in a drug-induced stupor - just seemed to take a little edge off.
Personally, it doesn’t really bother me if someone chooses to use it. Just don’t think it should be suggested when someone is asking for riding advice and the person giving the advice doesn’t personally know the rider or the horse.
I actually thought that whole post on JMR was a joke. It’s fairly embarrassing for him that it’s not…
[QUOTE=inca;7647969]
As wild as my mare was last week, I would say the Quiessence wasn’t really helping - LOL (Again, she is NOT showing. Has not even jumped for over a year due to the surgery and “pasture trauma.”)
And I have heard the same thing that magnesium only works if they are deficient. But, I have actually seen horses on Perfect Prep and it did seem to make a difference. Not like they suddenly acted like they were in a drug-induced stupor - just seemed to take a little edge off.
Personally, it doesn’t really bother me if someone chooses to use it. Just don’t think it should be suggested when someone is asking for riding advice and the person giving the advice doesn’t personally know the rider or the horse.[/QUOTE]
There’s more than magnesium in PP.
PP is explicitly mentioned in the link inca posted with no mention of it violating the rules either in spirit or letter.
Again, I totally understand those who feel that just because it doesn’t test doesn’t make it legal, but what about not feeding alfalfa or adding oil or sunflower seeds to your horse’s feed? All of those things can have a calming effect on horses and many are fed specifically that way so they don’t get “hot.” What about those who feel that feeding grain (sweet feed in particular) makes their horses too hyped up?
I’m not going to freak out about it. It’s not a narcotic.
"Please explain why it is illegal (dangerous) to use a calming element (drug) on a horse to improve its safety and performance?
It is the Federation’s viewpoint that while it is not necessarily wrong to sedate (calm) a horse for a specific therapeutic purpose or to contribute to its safety as the result of a trauma or stress, it does significantly endanger equine health and wellbeing. It also violates the concept of “fair play,” upon which this Federation’s principles in sport is founded; to unnecessarily and artificially affect mentation (level of attention and clarity of focus) in a horse strictly for competitive gain, or to “improve its performance” in the show ring, is therefore against the Federation’s rules."
That is on Page 11. The points that specifically mention Perfect Prep are on Page 8 and are more direct questions (whether Perfect Prep sponsors USEF and whether it contains GABA). I guess the debate with this would be whether you think Perfect Prep affects attention and clarity of focus? I wouldn’t say Perfect Prep is a “drug” but certainly a “calming element”…
Who knows if this stuff even works…I have seen horses that it didn’t affect at all and others who look like they just ate a big turkey dinner and were ready for a 3 hour nap :lol:
Yeah, but I was really surprised that when they answered the GABA question that they didn’t add that it still violates the spirit of the rule. Seems really odd not to take the opportunity to say that since that is standard USEF language when discussing things that they can’t test for.
If you give something for the purpose of altering performance-- that is against the rules. Period. RG suggested giving PP to alter this horse’s performance. That violates the rules. If you give PP or valerian or Calm and Cool to quiet a horse-- that is prohibited even if the substance you gave is untestable and not separately prohibited.
As a practical point, they are obviously not enforcing this. Since several of us on this very thread have seen empty PP tubes in the trash cans at shows. And if a JUDGE feels comfortable recommending it in writing on the internet, that tells you that no one is getting in trouble for using Perfect Prep.
And 2 judges have now gone on record as saying it is legal! I have also heard trainers talk about it an say it is legal. I am not saying they are RIGHT but it does not appear that USEF is planning on doing anything to curtail its use.
[QUOTE=Bristol Bay;7647679]
The OP’s screen shot of her comment as linked in post #4
http://smg.photobucket.com/user/meupatdoes/media/Mobile%20Uploads/JMR_zps287f967d.png.html
And by the way, Ms. Porter, we all give advice on a voluntary basis, too. ;)[/QUOTE]
Anytime you post a message with a link it ‘awaits moderation’
It’s not the Tryptophan in turkey that makes you sleepy - that’s a myth. It’s just eating too much that makes you sleepy.
While Tryptophan has been shown to help slightly as a sleep aid (help people with trouble fall asleep faster and has no measurable impact on those without sleep problems) it is unlikely that it is being give in a high enough amount to impact the horse.
Really the ingredients in Perfect Prep in the amounts given in a suggested dose probably do exactly nothing (except for in the mind of the rider/trainer).
However - as has been pointed out it is still cheating (or at least attempting to cheat incompetently).
Since there isn’t a drug in existence that can actually train the horse for you, the absolute ‘best’ effect of any method of chemically cheating is to take the edge off.
In this sense using an herbal calmer is in spirit no different than using something like reserpine. The users are looking for exactly the same result.
Something like PP is just safer for the horse.
The whole ‘it’s just a calming supplement’ argument really doesn’t work - you are trying chemically to get the same result as someone using sedatives.
Who cares if the advice is free, if the people giving it are volunteering their time, if the advice given is BAD? To paraphrase Thumper’s dad, “if you don’t have something correct to say, don’t say anything at all.”
In RG’s world, everything can be fixed with a crest release.
Crossrails? Crest release! Grab the ears!
3’ hunters? Crest release! No ribbons unless you’re on the neck!
4’6" jumpers, with an absolutely solid seat and gorgeous automatic release? A crest release would be better!
Agreed that Carol Dean Porter, and that dressage trainer, are much more helpful. But they don’t seem to comment as much
My name is Noelle King and I am President of Judge My Ride. When the idea came to me for JMR, I sought out Rob Gage exclusively to help me start it for a number of reasons. I live in Georgia and riders in this state, though we have exceptional trainers, riders and horses, we don’t have a trainer here who has had the kind of career in International Grand Prix Show Jumping and training National Medal Final and Young Riders Champions like a Rob Gage. He was also a highly successful Hunter rider and trainer previous to his fame as Grand Prix rider.
A friend of mine grew up riding with trainers a lot of us can only dream of riding with. She rode with our current Chef d’equipe, Robert Ridland, she rode with Bert Mutch, George Morris, Rob Gage, Greg McDermott (when she lived in Australia), and Damian Gardiner at the height of his career. She raved about all of them and knew how lucky she was to have access to a dream team of talent like all of the aforementioned. But what she said about Rob stood out to me. She said “no one could could fire her up to win, no one could inspire her to raise the level of her riding and her confidence in her horse and herself like Rob Gage.” Other friends of hers who know him and by now accomplished show jumping riders themselves, told me that they hear all the time from people who rode with Rob that if he started training full time again, they would go back to him in a heart beat. It is incredibly rare to hear so many people at the top of sport speak this way about a colleague, trainer or rider being “so ethical and never a money grubber.” In the years I have come to know Rob, I can say they were not exaggerating. I am exceedingly proud to have Rob Gage and Carol Dean Porter as a business partners and friends. Rob doesn’t think he is perfect, but he is 100% sincere about helping riders and horses. Every professional we have on JMR is just as dedicated, and yes, they give their time selflessly. Anyone who says Rob’s commentary is always the same, can not possibly have read all of the thousands upon thousands of evaluations he has done. He did not coach his students to win USET Finals, etc., by only telling them “3 things.” That, I can guarantee. Better yet, they can could tell you that. Some photos though, only show so much and even he wishes he could say more. He makes no apologies for suggesting a crest release, that is his personal preference. Judge My Ride was founded for video evaluations, and we do photo evaluations because our followers love them. George Morris can say more in Practical Horseman of course, as he is not dealing with the volume we do. To ask our judges to go that in depth for each submission would of course, be more time consuming. Perhaps we can add that one day, but we would have to charge for the time it takes them for more in depth analysis. Our followers enjoy the free photo aspect of JMR so we have done our best to keep it that way.
In the almost 4 years of JMR, (3 years this month as a web site) we thankfully have not had to deal with much controversy. Though we know controversy is inevitable in our sport or any sport really. Considering we have over 87,000 followers on social media (organically - meaning they find and follow us, we have never paid for a single follower) and our website traffic ranks among the top equestrian websites Internationally, the ratio of good feedback, versus a negligible amount of bad, is significant. We are incredibly thankful for that and we appreciate constructive feedback. No one minds questioning commentary. However, turning a suggestion about a legal product like Perfect Prep into sweeping assumptions inferring he is suggesting every horse should be pumped with illegal substances is a very big stretch.
Conversely, maybe there are a riders out there who don’t inherently know riding without stirrups will strengthen their leg. So we can do better in not assuming some of the foundations of riding are not ingrained in every rider. I do know Rob was very tired after judging all day. Bleary eyed, but still wanting to help, he called the bit a pelham, when it was a snaffle. So I’m sure he will issue the “mea maxima culpa” some are looking for from him. He works too hard and should take some time off. I can tell you he cares about every rider who seeks his help. He’s Rob Gage and he’s famous and in demand, but he is the nicest most caring man anyone could meet. He does most of the commentary, because quite frankly, people love him and know they are lucky to talk to him. They ask for him and he is the kind of person who is there to help, because it weighs on him to be there when someone asks.
Regarding the legality of Perfect Prep: Rob will clarify his meaning,of his remarks, concerning the rider in question when he is able to check in here and respond. But after speaking to several USEF judges, as of this moment, at this hour of this day, Perfect prep is NOT Illegal. So, to use another extreme exaggeration, we aren’t talking Jimmy Hendrix, Purple Haze, hallucinogenics here. This a calmative supplement that is legal. I understand the point about “intent” regarding performance enhancement. But practically everything we do could be construed as such. Injections like H/A “enhance” a horses performance, it too, is legal. But are we eviscerating everyone who enhances their horses comfort with H/A as irresponsibly encouraging “performance altering enhancements?” Exaggerating again, the next thing you know petting a nervous horse could be construed as “calmative intent.” PP is not illegal, so it’s not fair to so viciously distort one suggestion, to one rider, as an intentional campaign to promote rampant “chemical alteration” instead of flatwork lunging, etc. But I see the collective point of the critics here, that we could put a disclaimer up to underscore that due to the volume of entries, everyone should consider the essentials of no stirrups, flatwork, etc. strengthening, as the first paragraph of every evaluation.
When Carol comments about the time they give, it’s not to whine, it’s in response to comments which intimate their motives are self serving or anything less than sincere. They care, they are generous, and they go the extra mile to help riders realize their dreams. We have all levels of riders, so we change up our Judge My Ride Challenge contests to accommodate them all - from grass roots - all the way to Big Eqs, Hunters, High Jumpers, Eventing Dressage etc. Every month equestrians can Ride to Win high end prizes, like CWD Tack or Full Custom DeNiro riding boots in JMR Challenges. We have awarded numerous Samshield helmets, breeches, gloves, leather halters, the list goes on and on. We strive to be a welcoming ‘home’ for equestrians. We do all we can to give back with these contests and see talent rewarded with valuable prizes. We are a young company and aspire to grow, learn from feedback and be around a long time.
Sincerely,
Noelle King
President
Judgte My Ride
Noelle,
Please read this thread and realize while perfect prep is not illegal in that there is no drug test for it, the spirit in which Rob Gage suggested it’s use is illegal. Rob Gage could be the worlds greatest coach, but calling on someone to put performance altering drugs in an animal is not horsemanship.
OK, I admit I have skipped several pages, but after viewing meup’s link have to ask: did anyone read the comments?
Rider corrects RG by telling him horse is wearing a fullcheek & also admits to using PP previously.
For those who say the horse does not look strong - hard to tell from a video what he FEELS like for the rider.
I rode (eons ago) in a clinic with Diane Carney where she had us switch horses.
The horse I drew looked so smooth with his owner aboard, but once in the irons I discovered he required pushing to every single fence - like riding molasses!
The rider who got my horse, got off and said to me “I now respect your leg”.
What you see in the video is not what may be the actuality (is that a word?) of the ride.
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