I signed!
Thank you to all who have signed! Please keep sharing! It only takes a few seconds to create an account so that you can sign and doing so could make all the difference for us in pursuing this.
FYI, the ārumorsā are flying that KOās new partner in crime is a person named Tres Delaforce who is also reported to be a bad apple. Apparently, KO is now thinking about switching to the TB business āwhere people donāt have such extreme attachments to their horses.ā
Anyone know more about this? Apparently Tres Delaforce was arrested and [edit] of theft by possession in Kentucky 2012.
Seems like two peas in a pod though. This is Kateās mugshot for an arrest in February. Wanted on open bench warrant and considered a flight risk for this right now.
[QUOTE=WendyLiopiros;7538845]
Does this look like the pedigree of a ācast awayā? http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/zena24
How about this? http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/sincere8
These were worthy mares, who were loved. Not ācast awaysā. Free leasing is often how people who care about their horses control who gets access to them. In this situationā¦ that back fired. However, Kate knows a quality pedigree and that is why she wanted our mares. Please donāt down play their value in this world by labeling them in such a degrading way. Itās insulting, and unnecessaryā¦ And truly, the crime would be the same if they were all crippled donkeys. Starving an animal is starving an animalā¦ Regardless of their value to the rest of the world.[/QUOTE]
Iām glad this thread is going to such good use.
Look, I am not saying these horses are not loved or have sentimental value or value as a life. Those are your emotional words, and fair enough, you have a former horse in a bad situation.
What I am saying is that more often than not, people who canāt afford to buy or have motives of just making money are using these mares for their own purpose with poor outcomes for the mares. Can you really argue that as your mare is in a tough place right now?
There have been MANY other stories on here and it is the same thing, free lease/sale to a person I donāt know well that ended poorly.
SO my advice was to be very careful when giving away or free leasing your mare. And part of my point is that if the local respectable breeder is not interested in the mare for a purchase, you need to reconsider her ābreeding valueā and what it means in the market for her well being. This is not about your attachment or feelings, it is about the best outcome for your mare and you being realistic enough to accept her value for her own good. Think about this.
And if the local respected breeder is not willing to pay anything, this opinion is based on the fact that her offspring, in their opinion are not going to be worth enough to warrant putting value on her. If your mare did have value to them, then you did her a disservice by giving her away. She had the ability to earn her own keep.
On a starving horse thread, why are we arguing about needing to breed more horses that are outside of market value? How is that thinking of the best interest for horses in general?
Like it or not, hurt feelings or not - breeders pay really good money for broodmares. They are not free. If those type of people are not willing to buy the horse or leaseā¦you need to re-think. For the horses sake and for her offspringās sake.
ps-there was just a whole thread about competion mares and breeding mares. Not every mare with a nice pedigree should be bred. In Europe and here with excellent breeders they cull mares with really good pedigreeās and they go into sport. It is how good breeders think, they will not breed a mare just because she has a decent pedigree. However, lots of people that are trying to make a quick buck will use that pedigree for a foal sale.
[QUOTE=GutsNGlory;7539119]
Thank you to all who have signed! Please keep sharing! It only takes a few seconds to create an account so that you can sign and doing so could make all the difference for us in pursuing this.
FYI, the ārumorsā are flying that KOās new partner in crime is a person named Tres Delaforce who is also reported to be a bad apple. Apparently, KO is now thinking about switching to the TB business āwhere people donāt have such extreme attachments to their horses.ā
Anyone know more about this? Apparently Tres Delaforce was arrested and [edit] of theft by possession in Kentucky 2012.
Seems like two peas in a pod though. This is Kateās mugshot for an arrest in February. Wanted on open bench warrant and considered a flight risk for this right now.[/QUOTE]
Perhaps, but as of right now, she is still working the warmblood set up under the name Voltaire Sporthorses and trying to obtain hunter/jumper students and looking at the boarding/trader mentality now. She is in Winchester, KY
It seems to be the COTH standard that owners of mares (whether former competition mounts or broodmares) are going to be second guessed if they do not feed them till they are too old to keep going and have to be put down and instead 1) sell them (for any amount) 2) lease them (for any amount) or 3) put them down before they are old and feeble.
The logic of the COTH Board never fails to impress.
[QUOTE=stoicfish;7539247]
Iām glad this thread is going to such good use.
Look, I am not saying these horses are not loved or have sentimental value or value as a life. Those are your emotional words, and fair enough, you have a former horse in a bad situation.
What I am saying is that more often than not, people who canāt afford to buy or have motives of just making money are using these mares for their own purpose with poor outcomes for the mares. Can you really argue that as your mare is in a tough place right now?
There have been MANY other stories on here and it is the same thing, free lease/sale to a person I donāt know well that ended poorly.
SO my advice was to be very careful when giving away or free leasing your mare. And part of my point is that if the local respectable breeder is not interested in the mare for a purchase, you need to reconsider her ābreeding valueā and what it means in the market for her well being. This is not about your attachment or feelings, it is about the best outcome for your mare and you being realistic enough to accept her value for her own good. Think about this.
And if the local respected breeder is not willing to pay anything, this opinion is based on the fact that her offspring, in their opinion are not going to be worth enough to warrant putting value on her. If your mare did have value to them, then you did her a disservice by giving her away. She had the ability to earn her own keep.
On a starving horse thread, why are we arguing about needing to breed more horses that are outside of market value? How is that thinking of the best interest for horses in general?
Like it or not, hurt feelings or not - breeders pay really good money for broodmares. They are not free. If those type of people are not willing to buy the horse or leaseā¦you need to re-think. For the horses sake and for her offspringās sake.
ps-there was just a whole thread about competion mares and breeding mares. Not every mare with a nice pedigree should be bred. In Europe and here with excellent breeders they cull mares with really good pedigreeās and they go into sport. It is how good breeders think, they will not breed a mare just because she has a decent pedigree. However, lots of people that are trying to make a quick buck will use that pedigree for a foal sale.[/QUOTE]
I apologize if you were speaking in more general terms than just this case. I misunderstood your meaning. I have to say though that your last post still sounds like youāre speaking about these mares in particular.
I think itās important to note that (at least in the case of the mare Iām connected with) the stallion owner reached out and asked to free lease this mare. She wasnāt otherwise for lease/sale. The owners had no plans of her going anywhere. KO is a new stallion owner and in the interest of promoting the stallion (and herself moreover) she sought ought well-bred mares and unsuspecting and kind people and asked to use the mares for one breeding season. In the case of the mare I know, there were promises of riding/training in exchange for the use (up until the mare was in foal and bringing her back after foaling). The owners were not using the mare, as her main rider (me :)) was pregnant. With an interest in what the mare would throw (her granddam is a very famous broodmare), and no reason for her to be sitting around doing nothing for the next year, they agreed to the free-lease under very specific terms, which were gravely breeched.
I think your perception of the circumstances is not entirely accurate. I know there is the case of the one mare who was sold for $1, effectively given away. This was not the case with all the mares.
Having said that, I completely agree with the fact that just because you have a mare, does not mean it should be bred. And I definitely think KOās intention was to pop out babies to make a quick buck or gain notoriety, not a āreputableā breeder.
I think about 1/10 of the foals born in this country every year are actually worth having. That might even be generous. Then you also have to take into account the backyard breeders who breed crap to crap and have a crap baby that they love and care for and keep itās entire life. Is that still wrong? Who gets to say?
nelly6, I am speaking to the issue and not a particular case. My post was suggesting that the topic is worth discussion in hopes of helping other mare owners with their decisions. That I made clear. The mare owners who still have ownership and took the time to write something up that protects them, can get their mares back at any time. They just needed to check on them.
It is those who are not aware of how the market/industry works and are duped into these situations.
Talking about ideas is important. But you canāt do that if people keep talking about their selves and thinking everything is personal. Itās not. My post was not about anyone but the situations that come up here so often and how it can be prevented. It just so happens there are people here that it has happened too.
Seriously omare, the person was going to try and breed an older mare (that may lose the foal) and put her up for sale or put her down. Either way it was for her own benefit as opposed to the horses. Like I said -not ideal. But carry on with your thinking that horses do not deserve something better and I will carry on with mine. (she had how many foals for this person and they still thought they owed the horse nothing? Not a decrepit mare either)
[QUOTE=stoicfish;7539451]
nelly6, I am speaking to the issue and not a particular case. My post was suggesting that the topic is worth discussion in hopes of helping other mare owners with their decisions. That I made clear. The mare owners who still have ownership and took the time to write something up that protects them, can get their mares back at any time. They just needed to check on them.
It is those who are not aware of how the market/industry works and are duped into these situations.
Talking about ideas is important. But you canāt do that if people keep talking about their selves and thinking everything is personal. Itās not. My post was not about anyone but the situations that come up here so often and how it can be prevented. It just so happens there are people here that it has happened too.
Seriously omare, the person was going to try and breed an older mare (that may lose the foal) and put her up for sale or put her down. Either way it was for her own benefit as opposed to the horses. Like I said -not ideal. But carry on with your thinking that horses do not deserve something better and I will carry on with mine. (she had how many foals for this person and they still thought they owed the horse nothing? Not a decrepit mare either)[/QUOTE]
OK, now I totally see what youāre saying. I donāt frequent COTH, so I didnāt know this was a recurring theme here. I do agree with your overall sentiment of needing to educate people to prevent things like this happening. But we also need to work from the other end to see that people like KO are punished for their blatant disregard for animal welfare (like breeding trying to breed a 25yo mare). In a perfect world, people wouldnāt have to worry about horrible things happening to their horses at the hands of a āprofessionalā. Sorry it took me so long to catch on to your actual meaning, but thanks for spelling it out!
For those so quick to endorse the āEuropeanā breeding system, you are aware this involves breeding hundreds of top quality mares annually and culling the majority of the resulting foals, right? The reality of successful breeding is it takes a lot of chaff for a few kernals of wheat. This does not mean those foals have no value, but simply that breeding the best to the best does not guarantee the best in each individual case.
[QUOTE=Kinsella;7538342]
Mine were given to me by their competition homes while still sellable. Were they retired for a reason? Of course. But they could have continued on as show horses with maintenance. The owner said to me that they would rather retire them sound so they could be comfortable being broodmares, than to sell them and have them ridden into the ground and be uncomfortable being anything. Those are the owners I want to sell my horses to![/QUOTE]
And in some cases, the owners are interested in there being babies from their nice mares but donāt have the funds, facilities, or expertise to do it themselves.
Due diligence and talking to each other is really the only defense, whether the horse is leased, sold for $1, or sold for $10,000.
[QUOTE=poltroon;7539502]
And in some cases, the owners are interested in there being babies from their nice mares but donāt have the funds, facilities, or expertise to do it themselves.
Due diligence and talking to each other is really the only defense, whether the horse is leased, sold for $1, or sold for $10,000.[/QUOTE]
Well Said!!
[QUOTE=stoicfish;7539247]
Iām glad this thread is going to such good use.
Look, I am not saying these horses are not loved or have sentimental value or value as a life. Those are your emotional words, and fair enough, you have a former horse in a bad situation.
What I am saying is that more often than not, people who canāt afford to buy or have motives of just making money are using these mares for their own purpose with poor outcomes for the mares. Can you really argue that as your mare is in a tough place right now?
There have been MANY other stories on here and it is the same thing, free lease/sale to a person I donāt know well that ended poorly.
SO my advice was to be very careful when giving away or free leasing your mare. And part of my point is that if the local respectable breeder is not interested in the mare for a purchase, you need to reconsider her ābreeding valueā and what it means in the market for her well being. This is not about your attachment or feelings, it is about the best outcome for your mare and you being realistic enough to accept her value for her own good. Think about this.
And if the local respected breeder is not willing to pay anything, this opinion is based on the fact that her offspring, in their opinion are not going to be worth enough to warrant putting value on her. If your mare did have value to them, then you did her a disservice by giving her away. She had the ability to earn her own keep.
On a starving horse thread, why are we arguing about needing to breed more horses that are outside of market value? How is that thinking of the best interest for horses in general?
Like it or not, hurt feelings or not - breeders pay really good money for broodmares. They are not free. If those type of people are not willing to buy the horse or leaseā¦you need to re-think. For the horses sake and for her offspringās sake.
ps-there was just a whole thread about competion mares and breeding mares. Not every mare with a nice pedigree should be bred. In Europe and here with excellent breeders they cull mares with really good pedigreeās and they go into sport. It is how good breeders think, they will not breed a mare just because she has a decent pedigree. However, lots of people that are trying to make a quick buck will use that pedigree for a foal sale.[/QUOTE]
Well, thatās kind of silly. By the same token, if Iām trying to sell my horse and the first person who looks at him doesnāt want to buy him, is he worthless? Should I just start digging the hole? If āthe local respectable breederā doesnāt want to buy your mare it could mean any of a number of things. Maybe the breeder has financial constraints, maybe their herd is big enough, maybe your mare, as spectacular as she is, just doesnāt fit their program, maybe sheās not the right color, maybe sheās not the right breedā¦and on and on.
Many, many breeders absolutely DO get very nice mares for free. Free lease or loan status is independent of value. Itās a choice made by the mareās owner and doesnāt necessarily mean the owner was unable to sell the mare.
Well, thatās kind of silly. By the same token, if Iām trying to sell my horse and the first person who looks at him doesnāt want to buy him, is he worthless? Should I just start digging the hole? If āthe local respectable breederā doesnāt want to buy your mare it could mean any of a number of things. Maybe the breeder has financial constraints, maybe their herd is big enough, maybe your mare, as spectacular as she is, just doesnāt fit their program, maybe sheās not the right color, maybe sheās not the right breedā¦and on and on.
Really? You took this to mean check with one farm. As opposed to the local group of breeders, breeders in the same state or adjacent state. And Iām silly? If you had trouble finding anyone in reason that wants your horse and is willing to pay, then you need to take that into account.
Seriously, 12 pages and [edit] and this is the level of discussion we are having. How is this helping?
Itās ok Kateā¦Iām the bad guy now.
For telling people to be careful with their mares that do not have market value high enough to warrant a sale.
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?241033-BROODMARE-LEASE-GONE-TERRIBLY-WRONG-OTHER-HORSES-AT-RISK&highlight=lease
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?27701-WARNING-Be-careful-who-you-lease-to-unbelievable!-Pics-pg-1-THEY-RE-HOME!!!&highlight=lease
I can remember at least 10 really sad threads and the whole thing with Jill B. It comes up a lot. I will not further take attention away from the real issue but will say again, be careful of giving or leasing mares for free. They can be at risk as it attracts the wrong type of people or encourages people to not care for them properly as they have nothing invested. You have to make sure they are sincere and capable beyond a normal sale/lease.
We have lost the thread here
I think this thread has really lost its way. This is about a person who leased or bought mares for the intent to prove their young stallionās breeding worth and to profit by using the maresās bodies. The stallion owner assured proper care to the people who leased or sold the mares. From the photographic evidence, it seems very likely that proper care was not provided. That is what this is about.
Whether the people who leased or sold mares did or did not make wise decisions is not the crux of this situation. What matters is that the stallion owner [edit] did not provide subsistence level care to the mares.
If this lack of care was due to monetary problems, the correct action would have been to either ask for help of friends and community or to contact the owners and prior owners of the mares and offer to return the mares so that they could be properly cared for. The mares should have come first - not ego, not profit.
Debating details of mareās worth and/or the wisdom of selling or leasing is beside the point. A stallion owner has put those mares in harmās way and seems unwilling to make it right. THAT is what this is about. That should not be acceptable to the breeding community.
Amen!
[QUOTE=Home Again Farm;7540630]
I think this thread has really lost its way. This is about a person who leased or bought mares for the intent to prove their young stallionās breeding worth and to profit by using the maresās bodies. The stallion owner assured proper care to the people who leased or sold the mares. From the photographic evidence, it seems very likely that proper care was not provided. That is what this is about.
Whether the people who leased or sold mares did or did not make wise decisions is not the crux of this situation. What matters is that the stallion owner [edit] did not provide subsistence level care to the mares.
If this lack of care was due to monetary problems, the correct action would have been to either ask for help of friends and community or to contact the owners and prior owners of the mares and offer to return the mares so that they could be properly cared for. The mares should have come first - not ego, not profit.
Debating details of mareās worth and/or the wisdom of selling or leasing is beside the point. A stallion owner has put those mares in harmās way and seems unwilling to make it right. THAT is what this is about. That should not be acceptable to the breeding community.:([/QUOTE]
And, donāt forget to SIGN THE PETITION!!!
[QUOTE=Kinsella;7537983]
I have 4 free mares as the basis of my breeding program. All 4 are impeccably bred, have very good competition records, and 3 of them had produced foals in Europe before being imported as competition horses. To imply that mares being free leased or given away are not of good quality or that breeders who use those mares are not responsible is really quite rude.
QUOTE]
yes, Iām coming out of hiding for a while to agree with you.
Perhaps in this case (which I have almost finished reading about)
and in the future, one should say āOh and how many other broodmares do you have and may I see them?ā
Tamara in TN
Others have said it, but it bears repeating: the MO who leased/gave their āpreciousā mares to KO without serious investigation need to bear at least part of the blame for the way things turned out.
KO apparently had a rather long and (in KY) well-known history of being a no-pay, etc. If MOs had done more checking instead of just listening to someone spout fairies & butterflies, they might have prevented the [situation].
The FACT is, if they truly cared that much about their mares, they would have kept them home & safeā¦period. Yes, this would have cost them more $$, but they would have known for sure the horse was ok.
Barring thatā¦you take the risk. Again, I would never lease any of my horses to someone I didnāt personally know (well) and have seen their place, know where they work, etc. etc.
Spending afew $100on a PI to check out Miss O would have saved their mares much grief. Did anyone even bother to do this? Get her SS#? Check her credit? Check her rental history?
From browsing this thread, seems like MOs leased their āpreciousā mares to basically a stranger after afew phone calls & emails.
NOT defending KO, but letās spread the blame around alittleā¦its not like she stole the maresā¦
To wildly generalize, many people in the horse world are hesitant to share information, for various reasons.
-
They donāt want to involve themselves or open themselves to exposure to crazy and/or dangerous people.
-
They donāt want to look stupid or like they were duped by these same people. This generally involves a pile up of āhow could you be so stupid.ā
-
They wonāt, or they fear they wonāt, be believed. Some of these awful people have very loud and vigorous defenders.
It can make it very difficult to receive or give constructive information.
Iām really liking the idea of hiring a PI. And also saddened that it is probably necessary.
[QUOTE=ladyj79;7540918]
To wildly generalize, many people in the horse world are hesitant to share information, for various reasons.
-
They donāt want to involve themselves or open themselves to exposure to crazy and/or dangerous people.
-
They donāt want to look stupid or like they were duped by these same people. This generally involves a pile up of āhow could you be so stupid.ā
-
They wonāt, or they fear they wonāt, be believed. Some of these awful people have very loud and vigorous defenders.
It can make it very difficult to receive or give constructive information.
Iām really liking the idea of hiring a PI. And also saddened that it is probably necessary.[/QUOTE]
Why be sad about it? Asking for references is usually pointless, because no one is going to give you the name of someone who will say bad things about them.
Just because someone likes/loves/breeds/rides horses does NOT make them a good, responsible, caring person. A cursory look at COTH can tell you that much.
As for hiring a PI, with the internet these days, you probably wonāt even need that. Iām amazing at what fellow COTHers have been able to turn up in some cases.
So did ANY of the mare owners ask for stuff like: Place/contact info for employment; address of all rentals/resistences in the last 5 years; SS#; Drivers license #, DOB ?
Given this info and alittle effort just about anyone with some internet savvy could have found out a ton of stuff about this woman. And if KO was reluctant to give any of this stuff to the MO, then (as far as Iām concerned) she would not get my mare.
So again, while I"m not defending her at all, maybe itās time that people smarten up alittleā¦I mean, sending your mare from CA to KY to someone you barely even know!!!
Thatās almost as negligent as this KO personā¦and certainly contributory to the situation that resulted in neglect. We are always talking about how horses depend on US for careā¦well, they canāt work the internet themselves, can they?
OK, flamesuit firmly zippedā¦but sometimes the Truth is pretty ugly, isnāt it?
