Keep losing stirrups @ canter

[kupeski]

Hi All,

Hunter on the flat turning Dressage rider here (we wanted to become eventers, but my pony has decided jumping is not his forte). Anyone have good tips for keeping stirrups in the canter? A lot of suggestions I’ve heard are no-stirrup work, but I ride bareback a lot, and while I’ve gotten much better at not pinching with my knees, with a saddle I feel like I can’t help but want to pinch, which then rocks me forward into a light seat. I’m constantly finding myself slipping back into hunter habits to try to maintain my stirrups.

TIA

[flyracing]

Without video, I’m just guessing, but you might need to shorten your stirrups while you develop your leg. It’s very common to over lengthen the stirrups and it makes a rider less effective!

Lifting the legs up (accidentally) comes from the core not being properly used and strengthened. I recommend diving into as many biomechanics books and videos you can get your hands on.

Also, ride in different saddles when ever you get the chance. It can help you get more feel or you may find your saddle isn’t well balanced for you.

[SillyHorse]

Too-long stirrups was my first thought, as well.

[Chestnut_Mare1]

I’m a previous hunter/jumper too. It has taken me 2 years to find my dressage seat - and this is riding 4-5 times a week with lessons 2 times a week.

These are the things that worked for me - stretch your thighs and knees down so that the inside of your leg is on the saddle. Next, bend your knees so that your toes are under your knee caps - then put a little weight on your pinky toes in the stirrups.

You need to put the majority of your weight in the saddle at first and then you can lighten again when you find your position.

[UnlacedDreams]

I have the same issue I’m working on and I’ve found that the book “Centered Riding” by Sally Swift has helped me improve my seat. Got it on Amazon for a couple cents.

[Scribbler]

Too long stirrups. Also, are you able to sit deep at the canter in your jump saddle? I have seen some riders come out of hunter/jumper unable to really sit the canter. They can only ride two-point in canter, or they flop around and bang their butt on the cantle at every stride.

For dressage, you want to be able to sit the canter like a good western rider, which means your butt is glued to the saddle. However, you don’t want to fall into a chair seat, with your legs forward, as some western riders do.

You might want some good longe line lessons with an instructor who thinks about position and biomechanics. You could do things like moving your legs and arms about, stretches and so on, on horse back that will put the emphasis on your balance, rather than on your legs keeping you on the horse.

You might also want to visit a good chiropractor or registered massage therapist to see if there are any imbalances in your hips. Tight or uneven hips (these two things tend to go together) will tip a rider forward. In dressage, the angle of the hip is a lot more open than in jumpers, so tight hips could show up more. Also, the forward seat of jumpers can hide the fact that a fairly experienced rider might still not have a good solid seat at all gaits.

[kupeski]

Thanks everyone for suggestions.

Here’s a video of a ride this weekend

@Scribbler: The last time I had OT for work, they actually told me my hips are rotated due to a femur break in my early teens. I will definitely pursue that further at this point though

[merrygoround]

Have you someone who can longe you at the canter? Without stirrups?

Pulling knees up will lose you stirrups every time. Longeing without stirrups will allow you to learn to sit the canter, and you will need to teach you not to grip with your knees, which you will not need to do if properly sitting and following.

[Scribbler]

I’m not getting great resolution on this video, with black breeches and black saddle it’s hard to see what’s going on all the time, especially when the pony is at the far side of the arena.

Still, from what I can see, a lot about your leg position reminds me of my friend who has uneven hips due to scoliosis.

You are tending to ride toes down, toes out, not all the time, but the tendency is there.

And while beginner riders start out toes out, eventually you want the toes to be more facing forwards. I think when you add leg, your leg goes back and up, you tip onto your toes, and i can see how the stirrup would just drop right off the toe. And then you tilt forward and “perch” rather than sitting into the canter. Also, your trot post is very big and exagerrated, as if you are forcing yourself right out of the tack at every step.

This is the kind of situation where a coach would likely yell “heels down” over and over, but I don’t think the problem is in your heels, specifically. “Heels down” is not the best advice for leg position because it can cause people to jam their heels down and lock up, but the heel should consistently be at least a little below the toes. I used to jam my heels down to get deeper in the saddle, but it gave me a chair seat. Then I figured out something about dropping the thigh itself down and back, which got me the deeper seat without bracing my ankles.

Ideally, the dressage leg should hang down with the heel below your hip below your shoulder, no matter how short the stirrup is, or where the knee is. When you add leg, the leg should come in toward the horse, but not back up toward the saddle pad.

Your cute little Halflinger also doesn’t look easy to ride. He is going around like a pony, short strided, a bit upside down , and not holding the canter well. A seat lesson on the longe might take some of that out of equation.

Also I don’t get enough resolution on the video to see how your saddle fits. It does seem to have largish dressage knee blocks on the front? If those blocks are in the wrong place, they won’t give you enough room for your knees, and will impact your seat. Basically the more stuffing a dressage saddle has, the more it has to be custom fitted to the rider. And while it can seem comforting to have those big knee blocks there, a bit like the swell and horn on a western saddle, it also means that your leg can be pushed too far back and unbalance you if the saddle isn’t a perfect fit.

[Velvet]

Disagree with the toes forward. If you realize each person has a unique conformation, and that in studies of riding positions the rider can have the toes out up to 20 degrees and be very effective, then you realize that cranking toes in on many people creates a less secure and less deep seat. If you’ve been jumping for years, you have developed the muscles on the inner thigh, just below the crotch area. You have what we used to lovingly call “over developed gripper muscles.” So, what happens is that until you can learn to let go and also you start to lose the toning of those muscles, you’ll always have them grab and get in the way. You have to retrain the muscles and it’s just hard because you’ve worked so hard to develop them and create the muscle memory. If you ride without stirrups try something different. Try to take both legs off and away and just feel your seat bones follow the horse. Of course this is MUCH easier if you’re on the longe line! But even going around the rail or outside, you can take them off for a few strides at a time and then let them drape back on the horse’s side. Find that balance and learn that you can keep it without holding on with your legs–especially without your thighs holding on. If you feel you are losing that bit of “heels down” through your leg, lift the toe with the muscles on the front of the lower leg. Don’t pull in. Don’t lift the calf up. Just have the leg fall long and then lift the toes/front of the foot up with the muscles on the front of the lower leg. All of these things will help you start to retrain your body. Don’t obsess over the toes. If you ride with someone who does, and you feel at all less secure or locked in your hips, you’ll know that you are not riding correctly for your body conformation. (Hey, some people can have them dead forward very easily, but lately it’s become a totally unhealthy obsession in our sport and is making many people less able to ride a good sitting trot!)

[Velvet]

BTW, if you ever want to understand how the rider’s anatomy comes into play, go read An Anatomy of Riding.

https://www.amazon.com/Anatomy-Riding-Volker-Schusdziarra/dp/0914327089/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1470687683&sr=8-2&keywords=an+anatomy+of+dressage

[Scribbler]

[QUOTE=Velvet;8786373]
Disagree with the toes forward. If you realize each person has a unique conformation, and that in studies of riding positions the rider can have the toes out up to 20 degrees and be very effective, then you realize that cranking toes in on many people creates a less secure and less deep seat. If you’ve been jumping for years, you have developed the muscles on the inner thigh, just below the crotch area. You have what we used to lovingly call “over developed gripper muscles.” So, what happens is that until you can learn to let go and also you start to lose the toning of those muscles, you’ll always have them grab and get in the way. You have to retrain the muscles and it’s just hard because you’ve worked so hard to develop them and create the muscle memory. If you ride without stirrups try something different. Try to take both legs off and away and just feel your seat bones follow the horse. Of course this is MUCH easier if you’re on the longe line! But even going around the rail or outside, you can take them off for a few strides at a time and then let them drape back on the horse’s side. Find that balance and learn that you can keep it without holding on with your legs–especially without your thighs holding on. If you feel you are losing that bit of “heels down” through your leg, lift the toe with the muscles on the front of the lower leg. Don’t pull in. Don’t lift the calf up. Just have the leg fall long and then lift the toes/front of the foot up with the muscles on the front of the lower leg. All of these things will help you start to retrain your body. Don’t obsess over the toes. If you ride with someone who does, and you feel at all less secure or locked in your hips, you’ll know that you are not riding correctly for your body conformation. (Hey, some people can have them dead forward very easily, but lately it’s become a totally unhealthy obsession in our sport and is making many people less able to ride a good sitting trot!)[/QUOTE]

Good points. Lots of young kids in hunter/jumper ride in nice secure seats, heels down, can sit the canter just fine, yet still have toes pointing out quite a bit: no problem, as you say it’s not affecting their overall seat. You certainly don’t want to force the forward-toe thing; it comes with leg strength.

But I think that for the OP, the problems in her foot position are caused by issues further up her body, including her uneven hips.

If I was chatting with OP in real life, I’d be really curious to see how she rides in a jump saddle that fits her well. I’m guessing that we’d still see some of the tilting forward, toes down and out, perching forward, that we see here in the dressage saddle. IME, for a rider with a well-confirmed seat, switching from a jump to a dressage saddle doesn’t create this amount of imbalance. Especially when, as here, the stirrups are still quite short and she is posting, not trying to sit, the trot.

Perhaps there are physical therapy stretches the OP can do to try to strengthen or straighten out her hips.

[Velvet]

Maybe it is simply collapsing a hip and maybe that’s from one side being stronger. I also wish I could be there to give her help in using her body. The hard thing is that when switching sports you need people teaching you who have also ridden in both sports. They are the only ones that can appreciate the muscle memory and riding styles. It’s like retraining OTTBs. If you understand what they know, then you can more easily help them transition.

[Magicboy]

Maybe check to see if your knee/thigh is really rotated in?

[amb]

[QUOTE=Scribbler;8781439]
You might want some good longe line lessons with an instructor who thinks about position and biomechanics. You could do things like moving your legs and arms about, stretches and so on, on horse back that will put the emphasis on your balance, rather than on your legs keeping you on the horse.[/QUOTE]
Seconded. Or at least it worked out really well for me with not-dissimilar problems!

No idea where the OP is, but if you happen to be within striking distance of Hollis, NH, I’d look up Eileen Halloran. To quote her bio, “I am a certified personal training who specializes in postural alignment and position work with riders.” Her website seems busted, but her contact info is here: http://www.neda.org/forums/Posts.aspx?topic=681007

I took a private lesson with her on a private lesson a couple of months ago and learned one heck of a lot in 45 minutes, and she suggested small concrete things that have made a huge difference.

[kupeski]

Thank you everyone so much for your input! You’re really giving me a lot to think about in my riding. Scribbler is right that I point my toes out- my right more than my left, due to my broken femur. I do post a little exaggerated on him, compared to other horses, and drive with my hips more so I’m not constantly kicking him.

I was actually told from a H/J trainer earlier in my riding career to keep my toes pointed out a little more to keep the contact with the back of my calf, but that was ages ago but has possibly stuck with me.

I’m definitely going to talk to some people about lunge lessons and look more into OT. As for saddle, it’s a HDR Lexus (I believe). It doesn’t appear to have blocks nearly as big as other saddles I’ve seen.

Here are videos from about 5 months ago in an AP with stirrups set closer to my hunter length

Video 1

Video 2

And a 7month old video of me riding an OTTB, who is much more forward than my little pony
OTTB Video
Forgive the horrible downward, He really got heavy and didn’t want to stop

[Scribbler]

[QUOTE=kupeski;8787249]
Thank you everyone so much for your input! You’re really giving me a lot to think about in my riding. Scribbler is right that I point my toes out- my right more than my left, due to my broken femur. I do post a little exaggerated on him, compared to other horses, and drive with my hips more so I’m not constantly kicking him.

I was actually told from a H/J trainer earlier in my riding career to keep my toes pointed out a little more to keep the contact with the back of my calf, but that was ages ago but has possibly stuck with me.

I’m definitely going to talk to some people about lunge lessons and look more into OT. As for saddle, it’s a HDR Lexus (I believe). It doesn’t appear to have blocks nearly as big as other saddles I’ve seen.

Here are videos from about 5 months ago in an AP with stirrups set closer to my hunter length

Video 1

Video 2

And a 7month old video of me riding an OTTB, who is much more forward than my little pony
OTTB Video
Forgive the horrible downward, He really got heavy and didn’t want to stop[/QUOTE]

Thank you for the videos! This is really interesting.

I am seeing the same issues in your hunt seat videos. At the canter on both horses, you aren’t sitting the canter, but you also aren’t doing a stable two-point. Your butt is slamming the saddle at every step. Also, your toes are tending to point down, and definitely point straight out, at times 90 degrees from the horse’s sides. Particularly on pony, when you add leg, your leg comes back and sometimes your toe drops. The aid for “forward” should be leg on, leg stays in place at the girth, so that leg back can be used for other moves as you advance. Can you try to always drop your leg before you add it? Drop, squeeze in, rather than back and squeeze up.

And I wonder if you are also balancing a bit on the reins? Pony is definitely going around inverted, not really using his hind end, both with the dressage saddle and the jump saddle.

Are you working with a dressage instructor? Can you get pony to start stretching to the bit, relaxing his back, so he can start to step up under himself? That will require however having an independent seat so that you can give the reins for him to take, without losing your balance.

You said pony doesn’t want to jump. If you were able to fix his own balance, as well as yours, he might turn out to enjoy it. I don’t see any of the basics in place for jumping in these videos, so maybe that’s the problem, rather than the pony being unsuited. In that case, it can be fixed!

That said, is part of your problem with your leg that pony is on the small end for your leg? Do you feel you have to reach back with your leg in order to contact his side at all?

My friend with the uneven hips has further damage done to her position when she was riding with a crank and spur dressage coach, who had her put all her weight on the reins to “go round.” This led to her tipping forward, plus having to use so much leg that her heel was always creeping up towards the rear corner of the saddle pad (at its worst, much worse than you!) because she was using so much pressure on the reins, the horse was shutting down and needed to be kicked at every step. Slightly different problems, but to point out that you can get position problems from the particular way you ride a particular horse.

I wouldn’t worry about the direction your toes are pointing right now (in or out), but would want to concentrate on keeping them up, and your leg below you, not sliding back. Try to drop you leg every time before you ask forward. And try to give a little more with the reins, so the horse can move forward. What happens if you ride pony on a slightly loose rein trot/canter? You shouldn’t be having to use your leg constantly to maintain a gait.

[kupeski]

I don’t think I’m balancing on his mouth, or atleast it doesn’t feel like it. The most recent jumping instructor I rode with said to “balance on the mouth,” when I know she meant “maintain contact.” She actually told me my hands were far too light- something I’ve heard from instructors of different disciplines (Hunter said they were nice and light, jumper and a separate dressage instructor said they should be heavier…)

Part of the dressage saddle, as opposed to riding dressage in my AP was a friend/beginner and intermediate instructor pointed out my leg comes back a lot, and thought the positioning of the dressage saddle, specifically in the seat, would help me keep my leg more forward (even for the jumping instructor, my leg was too far back).

I’ve ridden with a few instructors on an off over the last year- my last instructor was a ‘crank and whip’ rider so the horse looked pretty but was inverted and hollow, which was part of why I stopped riding with her. On an out of shape draft cross she had me holding his nose practically to his chest, and then got mad when he wouldn’t canter- true I like to throw away my reins a little bit in the canter, but this big guy could NOT get his shoulders up while being hauled into a ‘pretty frame’

I don’t know if he’s too small for me- we’re actually much nicer together bareback- I sit him better, and he’s about 50% more reactive to leg aids. He has a huge pony barrel, which I know can push a rider who is short with short legs (I’m barely 5 feet) out of position. Pony, AKA Chubs, is 20, and was green broke to saddle when I bought him at age 13. He was trained as a driving pony, and then spent the better part of two years sitting in pasture before I bought him. I’m sure a combination of my bad position and his lack of training have brought us to where we are now.

[Scribbler]

[QUOTE=kupeski;8788396]
I don’t think I’m balancing on his mouth, or atleast it doesn’t feel like it. The most recent jumping instructor I rode with said to “balance on the mouth,” when I know she meant “maintain contact.” She actually told me my hands were far too light- something I’ve heard from instructors of different disciplines (Hunter said they were nice and light, jumper and a separate dressage instructor said they should be heavier…)

Part of the dressage saddle, as opposed to riding dressage in my AP was a friend/beginner and intermediate instructor pointed out my leg comes back a lot, and thought the positioning of the dressage saddle, specifically in the seat, would help me keep my leg more forward (even for the jumping instructor, my leg was too far back).

I’ve ridden with a few instructors on an off over the last year- my last instructor was a ‘crank and whip’ rider so the horse looked pretty but was inverted and hollow, which was part of why I stopped riding with her. On an out of shape draft cross she had me holding his nose practically to his chest, and then got mad when he wouldn’t canter- true I like to throw away my reins a little bit in the canter, but this big guy could NOT get his shoulders up while being hauled into a ‘pretty frame’

I don’t know if he’s too small for me- we’re actually much nicer together bareback- I sit him better, and he’s about 50% more reactive to leg aids. He has a huge pony barrel, which I know can push a rider who is short with short legs (I’m barely 5 feet) out of position. Pony, AKA Chubs, is 20, and was green broke to saddle when I bought him at age 13. He was trained as a driving pony, and then spent the better part of two years sitting in pasture before I bought him. I’m sure a combination of my bad position and his lack of training have brought us to where we are now.[/QUOTE]

Well, now my advice is: get better instruction. That any instructor would say “balance on his mouth” in any context whatsoever just blows my mind.

Quite aside from heavy or light hands, the question is: what are you trying to accomplish? As you realized with cranknspur, just hauling the face to the chest doesn’t do any good for the horse’s balance. On the other hand, riding pony Chubbs on strong contact with him inverted and hollow, throwing his nose up and out on his canter transitions, is accomplishing nothing as well. You’ve been riding him seven years; has none of your instructors wanted to address this at all?

Obviously, you don’t want to throw the reins away, but there is no gain at all in just keeping a death grip on the reins for the sake of having contact. If the horse needs a particular rein aid, you give it as gently as you can (meaning if he is bolting, you might need to use all your force to pull him around in a circle; gentle as you can does not mean ineffective). You want consistent contact, but that shouldn’t just mean pulling back all the time. What are you trying to achieve with contact? When can you release just a tinge to let the horse go forward? What is the difference between release and throwing away the reins?

If you are only 5 feet he isn’t too small for you.

I think you need to find some good instruction, someone who can address both your position problems, and your horse’s problems too. Someone who incorporates seat lessons on the longe, and who will get your pony stretching to the bit, and who has an idea about rein aids.

[kupeski]

This is really good for me, you’re making me think about my riding and how I ride

As you can see in the initial video, he likes to anticipate the canter, so maybe I’m holding him back so he listens? He’s also not very straight moving- some people think since he was a driving horse, he’s used to shafts holding him in place. At the same time, he doesn’t always listen to my leg aid if both legs are on- for a long time I had to hold a leg off his side, to open the door for him to step over if asking for any sort of leg yield. He needs a lot of correction to do a straight line, which have gotten 100% better since I bought him. Anyways, I feel that on top of inside leg, I have to pick up the inside rein to catch him when he tries to dive in the middle (doing a whole 20m circle is really hard, according to Chubs).