I thought they figured it didn’t matter as much to keep the O as you’re already competing against juniors most of the time.
I am not sure what I think about this discussion, but this last point is a good one, I think. On the tippy top of the sport: The top of the sport is elitist and if we’re talking about the A/O hunters, it is absolutely so, but no more than for the juniors and ponies, with the vast majority of the top kids riding many “winner” horses. In the case of the amateurs, some people might have a 3’3, or two, and one 3’6, and maybe a jumper, but it is typically not a string of 10 horses at their disposal. Why? Because they don’t have time and energy to ride them at the horse show. It is a lot of work and money to qualify for indoors in both of the A/O divisions, especially the 3’3 one. It is ridiculously competitive. The top horses cost $1m or more. They can be bought, but are mostly created by trainers. And the trainers rely on that income, these amateurs do a lot of holding the farm up and shaping it in different social and economic ways. The 3’6 amateurs I know have real jobs (50 or more hours/week) and many have kids, It sounds idiotic, but in the strange context of the tippy top horse world, it is really hard to go to about 15 shows a year, do one’s job, and keep the homestead operating.
3 Likes
Has consideration been given to removing the O from just the 3’3" A/O division, especially considering that is a relatively new division? That would preserve the “classic” A/O division, but would open the door for non-O amateurs to jump higher. It could simply be the 3’3" Amateur division.
6 Likes
@GoodTimes: I love this concept - let the jrs and amateurs duke it out at 3"3".Great idea.
Honestly, this discussion as reported in the article does not put our sport in a good light. Really, we are concerned with horse welfare? Umm, no. Really, we want the best sport, …? Umm, USHJA has a 2’ National Championship now. No, not ponies. It was offered at the USHJA National Championship in Las Vegas last year. So, no, we are not interested in raising the level of competition.
What’s the real driver here? Is it to keep young amateurs in the ring with a hunter division over 3’? Is there some body of information showing that this change would affect that, and to what degree? I’m unclear on why this change is being proposed at all. Maybe the trainers were trying to say that they don’t see a reason to change, and it all just came out in a mixed up conversation.
A/Os on this forum: my hat’s off to you for staying in the game and staying competing, with everything that comes along with adulthood (work, family, and so on). I agree that there should be a division that requires ownership.
7 Likes
Who’s leaving? There were approximately 20 in each breakout of the AA’s this winter at WEC. That’s 60 Adult Ammys! Plus a good number of 3’3 and 3’6 AO’s.
We didn’t wrap up our divisions til almost sunset certain weekends. The average start time for the last divisions on Saturday were between 3 and 430pm and most didn’t wrap til after 530pm-6pm.
WEF looked busy and even HITS Ocala had decent numbers after a few years of it being desolate.
Honestly, it looked busier than I’ve seen since pre-Covid.
Part of my concern about adding another weekend hunter division is the theory that we’ll be competing alongside at the grand prix if it gets any later. 
2 Likes
The 3’3 AOs are really popular and don’t seem to have any problem filling the divisions. As someone else mentioned, why not add a 3’3 division to the adults and let the owners keep their own division instead of needing to compete against the professional amateurs on sales horses and the juniors just out of big eq who become amateurs for NCAA purposes.
Honestly, the biggest problem here is the garbage amateur rules and even worse enforcement. USEF tries to define and enforce amateur status by income sources, when in truth we need to look at it by skill.
6 Likes
I get what you are saying but that’s completely unworkable for people with jobs going to A shows, and would mean a horse could only do pro divisions or amateur divisions, not both. My barn has to leave on Tuesday because a lot of the jumpers need to show during the week. I can’t get there before Friday, so either my hunter would just have to stand around for days which wouldn’t be fair to him, or the barn would have to make multiple shipments back and forth to shows. So maybe it works for weekend shows, but it doesn’t work for a week-long A show for riders who have work or family commitments.
8 Likes
Circuit or even single show leases have been a thing for YEARS. It’s a good way for an amateur to get their feet wet in a ring over bigger fences than their current horse allows without needing to purchase another horse.
I have never heard of a amateur trainer to ride class in Arabian main ring.
1 Like
I used to have a friend that showed Arabians. I don’t recall that at all (and I heard way more about the rules than I cared to). There was if memory recalls ATR (Amateur to Ride) and AOTR (Amateur Owner to Ride). A trainer isn’t an amateur anywhere I’ve ever heard of.
3 Likes
There is an Amateur Owner Trained and Shown split that shows can offer if they so choose. Horses can’t have been in training with or shown by a professional in the last year, but the owner is allowed to take lessons on the horse. The horses also aren’t supposed to be schooled, prepped, or groomed by a pro before or at the show. A pro can haul the horse to the show, and the horse can be stalled with a trainer’s barn at the show.
Now, enforcing those restrictions? Pretty darn hard. And most shows don’t have enough entries to support those classes anyways.
5 Likes
I’ll admit. I left the innards of the A/AA show world and have not looked back a single minute. However, I think the article reads in a tone that is exactly why I left and discipline swapped. My current discipline and horse show associations have their faults, for sure, but why couldn’t we try follow the cutting/cow horse world and revamp the system a little?
We have three divisions:
Amateur - a regular ole’ amateur. not paid to do anything that has to do with riding/training horses. you’re not sleeping with/married to/or living with a spouse or family member that is a horse trainer. has not previously been a trainer/loper/etc as a professional (unless granted back into the level). There is an earnings cap in the Amateur (I think its like $250k?? I don’t remember).
Non-Pro - literally everyone else that’s not a trainer. trainers wives/husbands/live-in family/etc. NO EARNINGS CAP!
Open - trainers
An amateur can show in the non-pro for more money if they want to (so they can enter the amateur & non-pro at a horse show). However, a non-pro can not enter down into the amateur. Our associations are also in very active discussion with members about lopers (western world working student, flat rider, groom type person) being allowed to compete in the non-pro (which they SHOULD!!) and I truly believe that rule will be changed this coming year.
There are also earnings based divisions within each division (IE Limited Open (mainly assistant trainers here), Intermediate Amateur, etc). The inner divisions are generally ran concurrent with the regular division until the semi-finals and subsequent finals. That way that you can have a better chance at earning money and the competition is more even.
Here is a LINK to look at an example schedule of a big show. If you click through classes and the menu above, you can see the incentive classes & inner divisions. We get certain paid out incentives from stallion owners, APHA, for being geldings, etc.
At weekend shows (think local HJ associations) and smaller shows (think 2 week A show) there are some “limited earnings classes” like the 2k Limit and 25k Novice based on earnings of either rider or horse. There are also a few special classes and the 2k Limit in which an amateur or non-pro can show a horse that is NOT owned by them or an immediate family member.
Here is LINK with an example for a smaller show that has some of the special classes.
We aren’t without faults or “shamateurs”, but I do believe it gives a more even playing field for those that are truly 9-5 working amateurs with limited budgets and want a chance at a check vs. those that can afford to be a true traveling non-pro. Two not amazing rounds don’t mean I’m automatically out of the money because I know that Jenny Shamateur is about to come into the amateur and wipe me out. Instead, because of a more even playing field, I might actually go home with a check.
Our horse market is thriving. In fact, horses are selling for more the past few years than they ever have before, especially solid amateur horses that can take home a check. Those divisions are also growing ten fold.
A lot of the “problems” that people have with dropping the “O” in A/O are already so often occurring and everyone just turns a blind eye. “Buying” horses for $1 for a circuit to compete in the A/Os or to get sold by jr riders that ride incredibly but aged out. Back handed deals. “Shamateurs”. It’s already there!
Of course, I’m not saying we have it perfect or that implementing that exact system would work for HJ land. I know that logistics and money and prize money would all be limiting factors. However, as they say, “if you build it, they will come” - so why not building a division with larger fences or a rule that is more friendly and inviting to the person that can’t afford to be a true A/O.
In driving ponies, its called “AOTE” - Amateur Owned Trained Exhibited. I think they brought it over from the Arabs & it has the same pain points. Low low entries & “shamateur OTEs”.
8 Likes
I attended the town hall meeting. I didn’t think it smacked of elitism, I think it was a group of people trying to prevent an aspirational division from being watered down and becoming common. The attendees were also trying to prevent a less than half-baked idea by the USHJA from getting passed without much contemplation of what the future effects might be.
And I cannot disagree more with the idea that having an adult amateur division at 3’3" and/ or 3’6" is going to somehow allow amateurs without a lot of money to show at the higher heights. Horses that can do those heights (competitively or not) are going to be expensive whether you own them, lease them or pay a show fee on them. Showing horses regardless of whether you own them is expensive. Full stop.
9 Likes
And this right here is the elitism. As you said further on these horses will still be expensive, but why should just a few people who happen to own these horses be the only ones allowed to compete because they have the money? What about the ammy who happens to be in the right place at the right time for a season to lease or ride a horse they would never be able to fully own? The juniors do this all the time, but no one has a problem with it. And it wouldn’t be taking away the A/Os, just creating another division alongside them.
8 Likes
I haven’t heard about that split at all, must not be very common.
Took me a little bit but I found the eventing rule I was thinking of, here is the link to the explanation:
Every competitor knows that schooling and warm-up rides are a crucial part of success at any event. Taking the time to school a horse around the venue and warm up properly before each phase is beneficial for every horse-and-rider combination. Today, we’re breaking down EV 108: Exercising and Warming Up. Text has been taken directly from the USEF Rules For Eventing , with emphasis added by the USEA.
EV108 Exercising and Warming Up
- IDENTIFICATION NUMBERS
By 3:00 p.m. of the day prior to the start of the entire competition, or upon arrival if later, each horse, including non-competing horses, shall be issued a number. This number must be worn at all times when the horse is being ridden or exercised. Failure to display the number shall first incur a warning. Repeated offenses shall incur a fine of $50 (payable to the Organizing Committee) at the discretion of the Ground Jury.
- RESTRICTIONS ON SCHOOLING HORSES.
a. It is forbidden , under penalty of disqualification, for anyone other than the competitor who will ride the horse in the competition to school the horse during the competition . This period of restriction begins at 3:00 pm of the day prior to the start of the entire competition.
b. A groom, while mounted, is permitted only to walk the horse or to trot it from one place to another. A groom may also work the horse in hand or on the lunge.
Personally, as a working ammy that actually has to work, I’d love it if amateur divisions proceeded on weekends, as intended. Let the pros have their fun Wed to Friday, they’d probably appreciate having the time to coach without also needing to stress about riding in their classes.
5 Likes
I have been in every situation from self-care to top-of-the-line full board and training-- as an amateur who has to work to afford to horse show, I am so grateful to the pros who make sure my horses are ready for me to get on when I can. Would love to do more of the riding, but there are only so many hours in a day. If I was the only one allowed to sit on my horses from the day prior, I wouldn’t be able to show.
There are also many, many pros who do not themselves prep the horses they are showing. Even if your goal is just to let Dobbin out to stretch his legs in the morning before he shows, if you’re a busy pro, there isn’t necessarily enough daylight to do every one yourself.
2 Likes
Last year, the 2k world standings was topped by someone who went to 89 shows and I believe is a trainer’s wife on a number of client’s horses. I don’t know what the standings were before the World Show, but the top 15 average 72 shows each and only two of those people showed a single horse - I don’t think that’s an attainable goal for most working amateurs and it’s your “intro” NCHA affiliated class.
It is nice that the NP has been opened to people who “train astride” as long as it’s not for “cattle/cow equine disciplines”. That way someone coming from a different association or offering up down lessons on the weekend isn’t pushed straight into the Open.
My horse sold for more in 2022 after penning, sorting, KS surgery, and who knows what else than she did in 2017 after three years of LAEs and pro training. It’s a very hard sport to break into when it seems that a horse to show in the 2k (or even lesson on) is tough to find unless you’ve got an established relationship with the trainer or owner. A real catch 22.
All to say, a lot of this probably has more to do with horse finances as a whole than it does the NCHA specifically, but I don’t think their amateur division has kept being a competitive amateur any more affordable or accessible. It’s probably not possible no matter how you cut up the divisions, money and time make a big difference. The organization seem to make the effort more with their weekend incentives, nationals instead worlds, local affiliates, etc.
1 Like
Unless the “lease” is just a sham because you’re putting miles on someone else’s sale horse…
4 Likes
I never said going for the world was attainable by your average amateur, but I did say horse showing as an average amateur feels more feasible in the cutting and cow horse world to me (a 9-5, M-F amateur that isn’t making six figures). As an amateur, I don’t have to compete against the Debbie Craftons and Ali Goods. They are my NP idols, but if I competed there, I’d never take home a check because my horses aren’t as good, and I definitely don’t ride nearly as well as either of them.
I also have the ability to enter classes where I don’t have to own a horse. Yes - you absolutely need connections to find a horse to lease, but you need that in HJ land as well. It’s rare you will find someone to lease you a horse that isn’t going to stay in full training somewhere they trust with a tight contact. I feel very blessed to be in the cutting & cow horse mecca where I am, and that I’ve been offered leases on wonderful horses, but it comes down to the fact that I have classes that will let me compete with my peers on a horse I don’t own.
If we’re talking about going for the world - its even more unattainable in the HJ IMHO. COVID year I was on the road for 260 days at competitive A/AA horse shows, and that was with the USEF shut down. 
I agree, there is a bigger issue with money allocations and such, and as I said, we aren’t without faults. However, I think comparing the price/attainability of world standings to each discipline is apples and oranges.
I still feel in my personal experience the cutting & cow horse does a much better job at getting people involved in a sport that doesn’t make you feel like you can’t show or participate as an amateur without being a millionaire that owns their own horse. I’m definitely not saying that it wouldn’t be so much easier if I was a millionaire! There’s a reason we sent our bridle horse to the trainer for his 6yo year to get train for the Rope Horse Futurity and that I’m sticking with occasional weekend shows right now. 
