Cutting has Amateur levels. Cow horse does not. The Amateur Cow Horse was simply a division of the Non Pro based on earnings and was renamed starting in 2022. It is now Level 1 Non Pro in the LAE.
To my knowledge, NCHA Amateur does not have an earnings cap at the highest levels.
https://www.nchacutting.com/members/new-faqs/non-pro-amateur-faqs
I probably shouldâve limited my thoughts to the 2k and not the amateur as a whole. Opening the ownership rules doesnât automatically make the 2k a great entry point for everyone. The 2k isnât particularly limited to those who are weekend warriors on a starter horse. Itâs also basically your only non open, non ownership option.
Beyond that, itâs nice to have leveling options for the horse and rider - I donât dislike the overall strategy.
Itâs possible that area and access to trainers makes a big difference on our experiences. My local affiliate averages about 4 or 5 people per class. We had two trainers in the state at the time and neither had a lesson horse or knew of one they could network for me. IME, the market for leases doesnât seem to exist as strongly in the western world.
Iâve been saying for quite a while now that I wish the entire concept of amateurism in equine sports would die a timely death. Break classes apart by rider and/or horse earnings, whether those earnings be dollars, points, or ribbons. Much for fair for everyone involved.
But I in no way expect that to ever actually happen, because âtraditionâ. 
Yes - it did change, even though I still refer to it as an amateur. Thatâs also why I didnât link the Vegas schedule & linked the NCHA schedules instead, because they had a better look at what I was referring to. Attempting to explain all the divisions and rules for both associations for the 3â6 A/O argument sake would take way too long. LOL
& youâre right! I was thinking of the NP rule. I knew there was $250k limit somewhere in there 
Non-Pro 50.d.6 - Once a Non-Pro has won $250,000 or more in Total Open LAE money (excluding shows with less than $10,000 in added money), they MUST make a choice:
The Unlimited Amateur also has a $250k NP money earned cap, but not yes - not the amateur as a whole! WCHA does do it based on money earned and doesnât take into consideration who youâre sleeping with/living with.
Youâre probably right that it isnât the best entry point, but for some of us it was the only entry point when we couldnât afford to just go buy a finished cutter fresh out of college or in a start up career. Itâs something that is severely lacking through all heights in the A/AA HJ world, as this thread has mentioned.
Youâre also definitely onto something about location. Iâm blessed to be in North Texas and can throw a rock & hit a million dollar rider in any western performance discipline. So, I will say my view on leases and the ability to obtain them is definitely from a privileged perspective.
To the topic at hand though - We could throw in the argument that after you earn so much $$ you canât show in the limit anymore or certain divisions in the cow horse, and then weâd be in the same boat as the jumpers.
However, I guess where my original thought was going on my first post was - why canât the HJ shows have their versions of a non-pro division? It doesnât have to follow the western world exactly, but it could be the division where leases are allowed and over-qualified freshly aged out juniors in college can ride sale horses, and the true A/O can still have their happy A/O bubble? Offer more money to the AOs if you want to incentivize owning vs leasing. Would that make both sides happy?
Ya know, outside of the logistics of scheduling & money & all those other factors. LOL
I apologize if it came off as me saying that only owners should be able to compete; I think weâre mostly in agreement. I was trying to highlight that with the 2k being open to non-owners, ammys, and non pros, that can make it a tough class for a beginner who has to work a 40 hour week. Ownership wise, many people are excluded whether they include that or not. If you open the 1k am to non owners, that solves some of the downsides and itâs analogous to the concept of broadening the A/Os, minus the non pro/junior discrepancy. Again scheduling, logistics, etc - but weâre only spitballing concepts here anyways.
Finding a one-size-fits-all scenarios solution to the amateur rule is challenging because of how shows look different across the country. For example, while some shows have enough competitors to be able to fill a non-pro division, Iâve seen shows where they had to combine all heights and age groups of both juniors and AOs into a single division, so it defeats the purpose of a separate division. Even splitting divisions based on results such as the below comparison (in italics) isnât a perfect solution as the 2â6 may fill enough to work the 3â3 and 3â6 faces the same entries issue.
Novice (Open to all horses and ponies ridden by an amateur rider who has not won more than six blue ribbons in a Hunter Division at any USEF-rated show. Fences: 2â6â) vs Modified (Open to any adult rider 18 & over. No restrictions. Fences 2â6)
The 2â6 level is a great place to split based on experience but I believe that if you are able to compete in the 3â3 and 3â6 then you should be able to compete against whoever talent-wise. Iâve seen many juniors and amateurs (and not shamateuers!) place very well in open divisions and derbies against many talented professionals. There are so many discrepancies and unfair advantages in our sport that my personal preference would be to loosen the amateur requirements as a whole (like allowing teaching beginner lessons) and strengthen the requirements to be a professional. While itâs frustrating competing against people who use the amateur division for business advantages, itâs also frustrating to compete against someone with a larger pocketbook or more flexible work schedule. But âfairâ is a place for rides and cotton candy, and Iâd rather grit my teeth and be frustrated than shut someone out of the sport.
Unfortunately, I think many more changes outside of just the amateur rules need to be revamped (shorter shows, more open divisions on weekends, qualifications to move up, etc.) to make the sport more accessible and inclusive.
At the heart of the problem is remuneration. So, Iâm Joe Scamateur (shamateur refers to someone who is a pro but riding as an amateur, scamateur refers to someone who is accepting a âfree rideâ and all fees associated with it from someone who otherwise couldnât afford it with a benefit to the owner to campaign their horse), and I enter the ring on a horse for which I pay no fees of any kind - lease, show, or otherwise. The free ride and associated fees is remuneration. The horse, training, show fees, etc have a value. It canât hide under the guise of a âgiftâ as it exceeds the allowance. And the issue is this happens. A lot.
Itâs allowed in childrenâs as they are not amateurs. So the stories about Tori as a child are nice but there is nothing wrong with a child rider taking the free ride from Betsee. ButâŠthis is not the case with amateurs because of that big elephant in the room called remuneration.
Have you all not seen the amateurs at WEF who show nice horse after nice horse (that they donât own) in 3â, yet they donât come from wealthy parents and their only source of income is to work in a barn? How on earth are they affording all these leases on a âbarn staffâ income, and how are they paying for week after week of circuit? It is someone else, like the horse owner, and that is remuneration.
So back to the âborrow this sale horse so I can put a record on it, and the owners is paying my way.â Well, that show lease and all fees have a value. And if you accept the deal, you violate tue remuneration clause.
Itâs very hard to prove because show management doesnât generally provide records of who paid what at other barns. Also, the barn can state that all bills were covered under a master account and then billed back to the client.
Still, I wonder how the full time barn worker / amateur client (who lacks disposable income) can afford to show lease a string of extremely nice imported horses and compete at WEF all winter? Since working amateurs programs are not allowed (because that means youâre accepting some form of remuneration related to training), Iâll file that under âThings that make you go hmmmmâŠâ
One wonders if the trainers who are facilitating these âscamateursâ in the 3â divisions are the same ones who are trying to protect the 3â6â AO because it supports their professional divisions.
I do think itâs important to remember that amateurs who are violating the ammy rules are doing so for the most part with the help of complicit professionals.
I donât think itâs impossible to separate the discussion of cheating from the discussion of ANYTHING related to ANY amateur division. Certainly fringe type cheating is happening in other divisions, but that cheating is not relating to rider ineligibility for the division. Thatâs where the amateur divisions are different.
Other divisions split by rider eligibility are: self declared (you choose to become a pro); open to all (unrestricted classes); or based on rider AGE (juniors). Rider age is pretty hard to fudge. I donât think there are too many kids out there lying about their age or getting fake birth certificates to stay on small ponies or stay in the age division juniors longer than they should.
Part of the entire draw of the amateur divisions is that they winnow out people from being eligible to compete (children, juniors, and professionals). But unlike children and juniors, the weeding out is not based on age but on finances. Unless we completely redefine what an amateur is, there is no way to have a rational discussion about any amateur division without acknowledging the possibility of cheating. For these classes, the rules HAVE to somewhat be oriented around discouraging/preventing that cheating or else we should just blow up the entire definition of âamateurâ and start over.
Iâll suggest we can take that even one step further âŠ. At the encouragement of professionals who guide them on how to weasel around the rules ⊠and keep a pretty tight lid on anyone asking or speculating on how this is done or youâre off the island.
I know this is a side issue, but this seems incorrect as to the rules. There is no requirement that amateurs lease a horse that they show. They are required to pay their own entry fees, but I donât see any prohibition on an owner paying the upkeep on a horse and allowing another amateur to show it.
Remuneration: Remuneration is compensation or payment in any form such as cash, goods, sponsorships, discounts or services; reimbursement of any expenses; trade or in-kind exchange of goods or services such as board or training.
Now, if the amateur is working as paid âbarn staffâ in a barn where the horse in question is boarded, that would seem to violate the rules, but not for this reason.
Am I reading this wrong? Would be interested in a stewardâs take on this, but I am unfamiliar with this interpretation. I get that you may not like someone riding a horse that they do not pay living expenses for, but Iâm not sure it is prohibited by the current amateur rule.
Yah, it isnât allowed in eventing, either.
Whoops, I replied to scribbler before I saw this excellent post. I think itâs great that no one but the competitor can ride their horse at an event, although when I first started going to watch events I was all: Thatâs bananas! And then I decided it evened the playing field a bit, and kept more of the DIY spirit in eventing that I have come to like.
Then what is your solution for week long shows where the working ammy can not get there until the weekend but their horse ships in on Monday?
Iâd like to see more national (A)-rated shows that happen only on the weekends/Friday-Sunday. But because USEF requires certain classes and a minimum number of classes per division, they make it really difficult to do anything other than the normal 5-day shows with open classes during the week and Junior/Amateur on the weekends. And because of the two-channel system, those who would go to regional shows sometimes wonât (or vice versa with not going to A shows) because they donât want to split points. USEF is really just suffocating itself and preventing any sort of innovation with their requirements for competitions.
I donât think it is the âlease feeâ that is in question, but all the other fees associated with showing - hauling and stall fee and trainer splits etc etc - on top of the entry fees which are really just a moderate percentage of the overall costs, and if those costs are not being paid by the âamateurâ rider then it could reasonably be argued that those fees/services equal remuneration well above what is allowable under the existing amateur rule.
Especially when said rider is showing multiple horses at multi-week shows and has no discernible income to support such activities, it does make one wonder how it is accomplished.
Thatâs a great question, and I donât have a good answer, although what Irene2022 suggests in the post below mine gets part of the way there. To be very honest, I forgot about that part of it, mainly because I have become very DIY myself, and ship my horses to shows in my own rig.
I think someone else suggested that horses could be ridden by others until the AO classes begin, although this is of course going to get messy and crazy to police. I really was just kind of thinking off the cuff, forgetting about the usual model of everyone ships in at the beginning and then the ammies come on the weekends.
Which is what happens now for most people.
I was just pointing out (something that someone upthread already pointed out) that it is not so simple as saying - we do it in our sport so you should do it that way too.
Week long shows are just different and lots of people do not have their own rig.
Do barns really ship out on Monday for a week long show?
Iâm in Ontario, we donât seem to do that here. The local (trillium) shows are one day (Sat or Sun usually); the silver series tend to be Fri/Sat/Sun; the âAsâ at Palgrave have classes running Wednesday to Sunday, as does WEC Ohio from what I can see online.
Iâm trying to extrapolate from eventing rules. If the barn all ships in on Wednesday, I guess the horse would be tack walked (permitted) or lunged until the ammy owner gets there. I personally donât show much, so I usually take the Friday off work and try to plan an early day on Thursday so I can flat after work. I do recognize everyoneâs work is different. I just didnât realize that people sent their horses âawayâ to a show for 2 or 3 days without being there.
I get it, I was just putting in another perspective.
Also, I am a jumper rider, and I was in a HJ program as a junior. When I came back to it many years later I ended up riding with eventers, so I have a slightly different lens because of that, but I am an ammy jumper myself.
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