No, you can lease to am amateur, but they would be limited to the adult classes. Or you could lease to a junior.
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Isnāt that basically just turning all the A/AA shows into local shows? Those already exist for anyone who just wants the weekend show, so Iām not sure I see how that would be a new solution??
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Yeah, comparing the H/J shows here to the jumper shows in Europe isnāt apples to apples. No one is obligated to be at a show all week - you are free to ship in for the weekend, or find a program/trainer who will take you only on the weekend. Or go to the 2-3 day local shows. There are options that already exist.
Personally, I do care about my trainer - she has a husband and kid and a life outside of the job, and expecting her to take people somewhere that often just to split things up is a fast way to having a burned out trainer who quits. And selfishly I want to be able to lesson with her on the weekends Iām home, and I enjoy showing with the juniors from our barn who are really sweet and fun to watch!
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Thank you! I have a nice young horse but no time (or talent) and was considering my options when sheās going under saddle, and didnāt know if this made leasing a non-starter.
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Sort of because the show would be shorter/more condensed but no because it would still be rated. Itās just condensing down the higher rated shows into a smaller, easier to consume package but with all the same amenities and opportunities. Itās the same how I imagine eventing shows operate with different levels based on the show, but still the same weekend schedules. It would also give more opportunity to mix the local level with the A level. Our disciple is so fractured between the different ratings (goes back to the elitist comments). Iāve heard about how back in the day it wasnāt like that (or as bad).
Personally, Id love to show in more local and regional shows but there arenāt classes for the bigger heights there and points donāt count so I choose to save up and do all Channel 1 shows instead of diluting my points between two channels. But Iād love more opportunities to not have to do that.
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All of this makes me so thankful for our high quality C circuit.
They run a few jumpers and āspecialā classes on Friday, and two mostly identical days of showing (Saturday and Sunday). You can do the full care ship-in with a trainer on Thursday, or you can haul a greenie yourself after work and get GREAT miles on the horse without burning PTO. Same venues, footing, jumps, and competition as the rated circuit, and a lot of the problems in this thread donāt exist - with everything running on the weekend, itās far less complicated.
Obviously such a strong, quality circuit (with a finals and identical year end points and awards as the regional rated circuit) doesnāt exist everywhere, so ājust show B/C rated!ā doesnāt address every problem. Iām just thankful for the opportunity to show in a way that feels like showing but doesnāt require a contract law degree and an expensive trainer to navigate.
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This thread, as so many threads on the amateur rules, seems to touch a nerve on fairness. But honestly, horse showing is never going to be fair outside of, potentially, experience restricted classes like limit divisions.
The hard working office professional bringing along their own AO prospect horse will always be up against good riding amateurs with more money. This could be the successful junior who gets to keep their own horse for a little bit (or like me, who got a new green project that I did a lot of DIY care with my first amateur years and had the time and lack of responsibilities and fear that make those projects harder as you get older). This includes former pros who now are doing the family thing and/or have new careers and want to dabble in the AOs and enough money to do it. And of course it includes the original AO crowd of people with lots of money and lots of time to ride if they want, and potentially strings of horses, including a green horse or three being brought along in the open divisions by their pro.
Why so much hate for the good riders who may need a little help or a little luck to get these mounts? Why assume these people are only cheats who work in a barn? Would it be wrong to allow some people, say maybe some young adults whose parents cut off the financing for horses but who are able to get some free saddle time and maybe could help put miles on a horse for the too busy or not quite confident enough owner, but who are actually trying to develop some career outside of horses also? Iām sure we have a lot of re-riders here who would have loved to have some opportunities like that instead of taking full breaks from horses altogether.
Outside of the large circuits, a lot of these divisions are combined anyway. Itās somehow fair to ride against the āpro juniorā in a combined class but not a good riding adult who can follow all the rules except for the ownership one? Itās never going to be fair.
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Hereās what I think the problem isā¦
Is there a big pool of true amateurs who can ride capably over 3ā3/3ā6 and the only barrier to being in the A/O division is the cost of owning? No. I donāt think so. I think there are some. And itās a bummer but those people have the AAs and open classes to show in. I wouldnāt have an objection to adding a 3ā3 or 3ā6 AA division if thereās truly a giant pool of these folks out there. But I donāt think there is.
What there is a giant pool of are pros with good riding assistant trainers who could become shamateurs and join the ranks of existing shamatuers and flood these classes with really nice pro horses. And thatās not what the A/Os are for. It would shame for the A/Os to become essentially a sea of catch riders and quasi-pros putting miles on sale horses.
Our sport is so expensive, purchasing a horse isnāt really the exclusive barrier to entry to the A/Os. The skill level required is a big barrier, and a lot of the people with that skill level arenāt really amateurs. Opening up the A/Os to non owners doesnāt change that. Getting training and developing skill isnāt free. Now, if youāre a pro masquerading as an amateur you already have the skills-- but is that what amateur classes are about? I donāt think so. Theyāre supposed to be places where amateurs donāt have to compete against pros. For the same reason juniors and children donāt have to compete against pros. Getting rid of the owner requirement really opens the class up to shamateurs and true amateurs lose the place where they donāt have to compete against pros.
Yes, some amateurs are really amazing. Yes, some are filthy rich. Yes, some luck into amazing horses. Yes, some donāt have jobs and have unlimited time to ride. But theyāre all still non-professionals and thatās a distinction. Your average rider from podunk middle America is unlikely to beat these types at Devon. But thatās ok. Thereās a big difference between being beaten by someone who has more resources or skill and being beaten by someone who does this for a living. Itās just life if your kidās little league team gets beaten by a group of better kids. Itās not fair when the other team has Mike Trout playing for them.
The cost of playing in the A/O pond is a big barrier, and I donāt personally think there are a huge number of people who can afford the training/shipping/showing/maintenance etc. but just canāt afford to buy. Most people who canāt afford the A/Os couldnāt afford it more if you removed ONLY the price of buying a horse.
Now, if you removed all or most of the costs-- because someone else was paying-- then more people could. But thatās the very line we draw between amateur and not. We might as well do away with the amateur designation entirely if we decide amateurs can have other non family members pay their way for everything. Who are going to be these amazing amateur-rider benefactors, do you think? The owners of the horse. And why would they pay for a stranger to show? Because it increases the value of the horse. And this wonāt help average-income-decent-rider-Sally-amateurā¦ itāll benefit, again, the shamateurs who are basically pros and can give a catch ride a pro ride quality ride.
If thereās truly a demand for the AAs at higher levels, offer the AAs at higher levels. But I donāt really think thatās the issue. The issue is that the cheaters have figured out a good way to get around the amateur rules and now, for financial reasons, they want to do that in the last big class left where they can use the cheating to really inflate the value of sale horses.
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What reasoning is there for NOT adding a 3ā3ā or 3ā6ā AA division? Why not go there first, before opening the AO to non owners?
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I was just popping back in to ask and I felt like this goes along.
Has USEF polled or surveyed its members on their feelings about this/the actual demand?
Iām no longer a member, so I wouldnāt know, but I am just assuming they havenāt sent out any poll/short survey for member feedback?
Iām assuming the main argument is time in the day, money allocated, and resources (judges, crew, etc). But I think itād be a great option to explore!
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The thing is, these assistant trainers are still going to need to have a job that earns them income so they can pay for their lives. If they continue to work in the horse industry, there are a LOT of restrictions on their ability to catch ride under the current amateur rules. If they are going to work in another industry just for the chance to show in the A/O hunters, I donāt really see how they are any less authentic as amateurs than anyone else who leaves the business, sits out a year, and gets their card back. The amateur division isnāt meant to sort riders by talent. And someone who used to be an assistant trainer and now has a day job in the real world is already allowed to compete as an amateur.
I would think that youād see more aged-out juniors in college catch riding in a world with no ownership requirement. And itās possible that will have a real impact on the division and the sport. But I donāt think weāre going to see a rash of horse professionals changing careers because they can suddenly show someone elseās horse in the amateur divisions over fences that are six inches higher.
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The A/O hunter classes are doing well too. So I donāt know where the problem here is. If the AAs want to jump higher Iām all for that. Why does it have to impact anyone else?
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Well, it appears many of the posters here think there are already too many classes and shows should only be two days and all that, so adding another height would be backwards to that.
(I personally think that adding another height is a good answer.)
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Showing in the jr/am jumpers means skill to navigate courses bigger than 3ā6ā, and the horses are expensive there too. But yet the amateur jumper change is working.
I think the 3ā3 division should have always been AA. I agree that there are getting to be too many divisions. Separate divisions every 3 inches from itty bitty on up is a lot and part of what has gone wrong with horse showing as a business and all the stupid ratings and prize money requirements from USEF.
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Because theyāre not going to really be amateurs. Theyāre going to be shamateurs. Thatās the point. Theyāre not going to change careers. Theyāre going to lie and say they did.
Does it really need to be a whole 'nother division? Couldnāt we just award a second set of ribbons for āAmateur-Ownedā? That way you still have the option of actually beating the bemoaned shamateurā which would probably feel incredible, no? And if you donāt, you still get your regular AO ribbons & points.
I can see the good & the bad on both sides of this coin. But given that the cost of a 3ā6" horse is about equivalent to 3+ years of (moderate) showing, training & board, I do think there is a large swath of the middle class that could be out there competing but canāt justify/swing that upfront $90K+ investment (especially in the face of unmet retirement/college/housing goals).
When the sport excludes folks making comfortable 6-figure salaries we really need to take a hard look at what weāre doing and what future that leads to.
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Hello! Itās me! Comfortable 6 figs, low debt, LCOL area, and no way in heck I could afford an A/O hunter (or show it, more than once a year).
I do wonder, sometimes, who USEF/USHJA is catering to. Cause accessibility for the āaverageā or even āabove averageā person sure aināt it.
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This would be awesome if it could work, but it would be impossible where I live because all the farms that used to hold the B/C two day shows back in the day are now McMansion developments.
Off topic, but, relevant to the discussion: The circuit I referred to above is run at the same venues as the rateds: Wills Park, GIHP, Poplar, Chatt Hills. A few are run at the bigger, nicer barns, but thatās rare now.
The only reason this works? The circuit started at little farms, running tiny one day schooling shows. That grew, one place started doing their summer shows at GIHP, and everything went from there. Soon, we had management that run A and B shows running a booming C circuit too, all over mostly the same jumps, crew, and venue.
Itās sad to me now to see people not wanting to support their local ālittleā shows, for whatever minor (IMO) reason - not enough bathrooms, not enough catering, etc etc, and then turn around and complain that A shows are too expensive.
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Would a better option be to keep the AAs as one division, but offer two or three heights within the division? I would think it might be difficult to fill a 3ā6" AA division at a lot of shows, but if it was offered as part of the single AA division, they could raise the jumps or not raise the jumps depending on who shows up.
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