I expect the cost to lease a 3’6" horse is not insignificant, so I do wonder how much demand there is for either a modification of the current division or an addition of a separate division.
4 Likes
It’s not, but it is significantly less than taking your entire savings of $90k and plopping it down on an animal that might promptly put itself out of commission and forever live on your board bill.
When purchase prices get this high the risk of ownership also increases, and I will not be surprised to see leases becoming the way of the future for both kids & amateurs.
4 Likes
I too question the demand for this, but if it does exist, modifying the current division might be less disruptive to current show schedules than creating a whole new division. Unless Amberley is correct and a 3’6" division would consistently fill (I suspect this would be highly dependent on the area of the country), then you’re just adding to an already long day for everyone.
I’m pretty sure you sell (or sold) horses for a living at one point, but please tell me where you can get a 3’6 AO hunter for $90k? 2’6 packers and nice baby green horses are going for close to that now.
It also seems like leases are going for more like 50% of value these days than the traditional 1/3, especially if there is a lease-to-purchase clause included.
6 Likes
To be fair, I said 3’6" horse, not 3’6" AO Hunter 
I was purposely low-balling, too. But there are (usually LCOL) places in the country where you can win with a 90k horse, and look the part enough to enjoy a few “big” shows a year. Horse will admittedly be plain, average, older, quirky, green, rank green, &/or have trouble vetting, but $90k can usually get a decent riding amateur with realistic expectations in the door.
Yes loads of leases are running 50% now but, again, that tends to happen more towards the tippy-top. And we tend to generalize towards that tippy-top around here when, in truth, there’s loads of folks with no WEF/Indoors/Saugerties ambitions. Just a desire to jump around a decently set course in safe facilities at a reasonably priced show. Maybe go for state year-end awards. But unfortunately, such a system (the ol’ B/Cs of yore) is not equally supported/available around the country. And that’s a related yet wholly separate discussion that’s getting mixed in here.
4 Likes
Me as well. I’m like yeah at 3-5k a week I can do 1-2 shows a year and none of them are Florida. Maybe I can do Florida once every 5 years, so in reality once in my life? Luckily I live in an area with great local shows. However, the barn I’m at rarely goes to them. I need to get my own truck and trailer again.
1 Like
I think it would be extremely easy to identify these people and report them to USEF for rule violations. And I have no doubt that the A/O riders will run right to the stewards if this happens.
We have to travel 6-8 hours sometimes to get to the bigger venues. So yah, shipping out on Monday is the best day for us. They can travel all day, rest that evening, get a school or hack on Tuesday, as needed, then most of them show a couple 2-3 classes a day for the hunters, 1 class a day for the jumpers. Pretty typical, actually
So from my perspective, I would love to see the AOs open up to leases simply because I cannot pay for a 6-figure horse. Like, ever. I am a pretty good-riding 40+ woman with a desk job. I did the juniors and EQ on a TB that my mom saved from an abusive situation and I think his price was like 2k. I did the AOs on a horse I brought along myself. I (stupidly in retrospect) thought I could easily do it again, but green horses are a gamble. I think now, in my 40s, I have another REALLY GOOD AO prospect. I bought him as a baby, started him as a 4 year old, and have spent the last 3 years carefully bringing him along. I think we are about 2 years away from being ready to compete in the 3’6. I would hate to imagine something happening to him and being set back another 5+ years to be able to show, but that is my cross to bare.
That said, I could more feasibly lease, especially a cheaper lease on something greener, and actually do it.
Honestly, I don’t want to ride in the open or pro divisions, but I’d rather be beaten by a better riding AO on a catch ride than an uber rich AO who has a string of 6 figure horses and spends most of their time at shows. Can we make a WORKING AO subdivision 
.???
I live in a robustly horsey area, and when I did the AOs, the numbers were so small unless we went to VA, so I don’t see that being an issue unless you’re talking about destination shows like WEC, WEF, etc. That may be different in different zones.
Where I am we have a lovely local circuit, but even within that, the 3’ rarely fills. So truly, if I ever want to compete over 2’6/2’9, I need to be at a rated show.
I feel like the “cheating/shamateur” thing is a whole separate issue personally.
7 Likes
I really like the idea of a working AO division😀.
3 Likes
It’s empirically proven that it’s not. There is a HUGE, pretty much universally known one in my area (COTH even did an article about how she was an adult working student) and nothing has been done. This sort of cheating is notoriously difficult to prove. Happens a lot. Gets busted pretty rarely. Not never. But not as often as it happens.
3 Likes
Two different issues here. One is people posing as amateurs who are not. The other is eliminating the “owner” requirement for A/O hunters. In both cases, USEF takes zero responsibility for enforcing the rules. There are a lot of people who “buy” a horse for WEF and then suddenly sell the horse back to original owner at end of circuit. Or “buy” the horse for the summer and then sell the horse back to original owner. There is no effort by USEF to determine whether these are disguised leases to get around A/O rules. And no effort by USEF personnel to, e.g., read the Chronicle where people showing as adult amateurs admit to being “working students” for top professionals where they get housing and opportunities to ride and show in exchange for riding and teaching.
7 Likes
This thread reminds me…years ago, I routinely beat someone on my own horse who under the table leased her fancy AO horse from a BNT. It was fun!
More and more, in reading this thread I’m wondering what the role of USEF/Equine Canada in monitoring and policing this. They are the governing organization that is responsible for governance and fair play - people flouting rules (and being permitted to do so) is not fair.
Recently in Ontario, the Ontario Hunter Jumper Association had a Zoom call to launch their new marketing and logo (modelled after a white guy, in a women led sport, but hey, they tried! ).
As part of this they announced a bunch of Amateur divisions and year end prizes. This is the link to the 2022 winners. Just for fun, punch in the 1.20 m and 1.10 winners and top 10 finishers - 40% got the prize for top amateur, but equine canada does not show them as amateurs. Could be a database error - perhaps - but who is responsible for double checking that those earning prizes (and entering amateur classes) are actually amateurs as per EC rules?
(I asked, OHJA said they rely on EC, EC said that they check but have no explanation on why those without amateur cards are earning these points)
1 Like
