kicking chains..for trailering?

[bigbaytb]

My Mare has a kicking habit in stalls and trailers. I have corrected quite a bit by putting her on regumate, which has alleviated a lot of issues. (besides ground work, and consistent work…some habits were being allowed to be alpha, some were just plain “ouch” from being in heat). When riding, she does not kick , even if a horse comes in too close. Anyway, she is decent in a trailer if I have a horse with her.

For awhile, she was fine trailering by herself and would just paw or kick a little. Then she got to bucking. One day, she redecorated my trailer so much that she put her back end over the divider (2 horse straight load). She was calm while a few people worked to extract her with minimal damage to the horse. So, we are back to trailering, but so far have been able to take a buddy. I won’t be able to do that all the time. It was suggested that I get kicking chains. I have read various accounts how to put them on… but it seemed for stall use? How / why do kicking chains work and do they go on the pasturns or hocks (as I have read both, but can’t seem to find a definitive answer).

[Palm_Beach]

It sounds to me that your horse has a problem with tying up, not trailering. How often do you tie her up, and how long do you leave her tied? Horses need to be taught how to stand quietly, and if you don’t practice it at home, it’s not really fair to the horse to expect them to do it in a trailer.

[findeight]

NO. Too much can go wrong in a trailer…she could step on them, they could scare her into bolting forward, and I can just see trying to lead her up the ramp or step up with those chains clanking or putting them on after loading and she bonks herself for the first time in a confined space at 50mph…yeah, that’ll work…

Might try loading her a few times a week, with the trailer hitched, and feeding her in there. Increase the time she spends in there. Increase that to short drives.

Make sure your trailer rides level, brakes work properly, no uneven tire pressure, bent rims, bent frame etc. these things can be subtle enough a horse with company will settle where one alone might object and/or panic.

She probably scared the crap out of herself.getting hung up, that’s going to take some time to school out of her. Also, many ride better alone with the divider out or swing over and secured, you might need to modify your trailer to allow that.

[SonnysMom]

If you decide to use kicking chains make sure you use a tail bag. I went to a paperchase with a group of people and one of the horses in the other trailer needs kicking chains. They had been using them for years with this mare without an issue. But when we got there the chains were wrapped up in the tail. Thankfully I had scissors readily available in my dressing room. They tied her tail up for the trip home.

Palm Beach- the mare above could be tied for hours, she didn’t kick in her stall or anywhere else, just in the trailer. I think she only kicked when the trailer was moving. She kicked in two different trailers although both were straight loads. I have followed the driver of this trailer many times- she gives a good ride to horses. They tried putting a thick pad behind the horse so she didn’t have the satisfaction of the noise. I know they tried a few other things before resorting to kicking chains. For OPs horse she says her horse kicks in the stall so I doubt that it is a tying thing. Boredom, claustrophobia, fear-maybe.

[DressageChic2]

or hobble her behind?

we have 2 horses atm (out of a selection of about 15 during my time of horse ownership) that are hobbled to travel,one in front (or climbs over the partition) and one behind (kicks the crap out the lorry).

central piece is still long enough to allow leg spreading to balance, pee etc but has totally 100% stopped the issues. Neither panicked in them and one is a very flighty hot headed WB.

ETA hobbling suggestion is only for travelling, not in the stable!

[Highflyer]

I do know someone who has used hobbles successfully to prevent kicking, but I’m not sure it would help with bucking/ jumping around.

[findeight]

This OP sounds like there are underlying issues that can and should be dealt with before chains or hobbles are added. BTW, hind hobbles or chains might stop the kicking in the trailer but if you have a horse that is, claustrophobic or scared in the trailer and/or that wants to rip backwards to get outta there the instant the rear gate is open? You have a much bigger problem…maybe a vet bill too.

If there’s underlying fear of the trailer? Chains or hobbies are just going to make a bigger mess. Problems with tying and leading skills don’t help and, honestly, most horses, including mine, could use a ground manners refresher if not a full back to square one remedial course.

[Palm_Beach]

^^^Agree. It sounds like the mare is trying to alleviate anxiety, and the more you do to physically prevent the horse from relieving her anxiety by kicking and pawing, the more likely she is to panic and have a big reaction. I think OP allows this mare to “lean” on her quite a bit, as the mare seems to be OK with company and just gets anxious when she is by herself. The horse is physically prevented from doing what she wants to do, and she gets really anxious. OP needs to go back to some of the very basics in groundwork and get this horse comfortable with being by herself.

[DressageChic2]

i agree to a certain extent BUT, by actually stopping the behavior you keep the horse safe.

the horse that is hobbled in front is a 5yo stallion, as a 3 and 4yo he was anxious about travelling alone in the way that stallions can be and he DESTROYED our lorry, nearly broke my sisters arm and his front legs trying to physically climb the partition.
hobbles stopped him even being able to try and prevented many scrapes and maybe serious injuries. as he has aged he has learnt to relax but i 100% dont think we could have taught him anything without the hobbles as he was trying to climb out as soon as he was left unattended for a micro second.

as far as trailers go, do you not have a butt bar or chain to STOP them just flying out backwards?

[bigbaytb]

Thank you for all the replies. I’ll reply/Comment on various questions:

My Trialer is a 2000 4 star warmblood size straight load with a tack room. It has a center partition that can be removed, butt bar, 2 doors in the back and a ramp that goes over them. IT’s a good size trailer, My mare is 16.3 hh with room to spare. Looked perfect until she redecorated the inside. I pull it with a F250.

She ties in stall, cross ties and to trailer quietly. She has actually self loaded this past sunday. My trailer buddy and I were not sure if it was my or her horse kicking during the drive as her horse kicks too.

The most “issues” I had loading was that I had to lead her in. She would stop for a second to sniff at a new trailer, but never refused. She never balked, ran backward or acted upset when loaded. I could lead her in and she would stand quietly and wait for me to put the butt bar up. I don’t tie a horse in the trailer until the butt bar is up. I also untie before taking the butt bar down. She unloads quietly, usually doesn’t do the “butt bar bump” when I’m unhooking, she’s pretty quiet when loading and unloading, doesn’t fly off the trailer either. She is the same going on first or last. I’m a careful driver, and do my best not to take sharp turns, etc. Never had issues w other horses either.

The first time she really slammed around in the trailer was on the highway, I thought I was losing my transmission, realized what I was doing and ended up taking backroads to the lesson. Realized it was her (she had been on the route to lessons before). 2nd time was when she ended up straddling the partition, she threw the fit about 2 minutes into the drive that was 30 minutes long.

So far she’s ok with a buddy. I have thought about swinging the center partition to the side. She has literally kicked my back windows out…so doing that does worry my for not having a butt bar up. Or keeping the back uppder doors open during trailering, but worry about the highway too. I am looking at trailer cams to watch her though.

I think part is just being a temper tantrum. I have worked on her not being herd sour. When I first got her, she got very attached to a mare. I threw my gelding into the turn out mix (as it was just 2 mares). He seemed to keep her in line. I worked with her on that I am the one that matters and not the other horses. It has worked because she no longer makes a peep when I pull her out of the pasture. She’ll neigh in the stall on occasion, but as soon as she goes in the cross ties, she’s quiet until I’m done with her. So I wonder if there is just training I need for her to get over herself.

I’m still trying to figrue if the hobble or kicking chain would work.

[beowulf]

Not saying it’s the case with you, but lots of horses who suddenly object to field trips do so because some part of their ride is unpleasant. I’ve had many a discussion with an oblivious owner who complains how bad Dobbin is on the trailer, but then I see why when I am in the car with them: they are rough drivers. They take turns too sharply, brake too quickly, or maybe it’s the truck - the truck shifts gears abruptly, or can’t really handle the load and jerks.

Or, which may be in your case, something is wrong with the trailer. I would see if you can have a friend drive you up/down the road sans horse and see if you feel anything.

Sometimes the weight of a horse on the trailer can hide certain issues, and the rubber mat can hide a lot of issues too - it’s really best to check the trailer thoroughly.

For instance, my guy is a great hauler but one day I felt a sudden pull and a suck back from the trailer and I swear to god, the truck launched forward 15 feet – and I was only going 20 MPH. I don’t know what he did, but he did something big – I pulled over as soon as I could, and when I opened the trailer door I was absolutely horrified - somehow, one of the planks of the trailer floor had gotten loose (bolt hole was there, but the bolt wasn’t!) and four of the boards had been shifted up the trailer wall under his feet — meaning, you could see asphalt where his hooves were supposed to be – he was straddling the trailer not to fall through the hole… I think maybe he slipped, and pushed the board to the side… but we weren’t going very fast and I am one of those ridiculously anal trailer-haulers.

I actually had to unload him, it wasn’t pretty - I had pulled up in the closest parking lot which was a very high end restaurant, and it was Friday night (what else does a horse gal do on Friday but go XC schooling?) and I had to tie him to the side of the trailer while I wrestled the planks and the mats back into position. I found a bolt and put it through the hole, but put him on the other side of the trailer (after double checking to see that THOSE boards were bolted!) and drove him home. Of course, my horse was so goosed that he refused my request to get back into the trailer – thank god there happened to be a horse-savvy woman in the parking lot that helped me get him back in and home.

Might be worth looking into. Of course, I had that trailer inspected within an inch of its life after that - bolt was put back into place (along with some screws) and we replaced a few boards while the mat was up.

[findeight]

To whoever asked about having a butt bar? They can try to go under, running backwards, if they are scared enough. Or throw their whole weight back on it so you cannot release it or fall when it’s suddenly released.

Regardless, if you as a handler, have no experience with hobbles or kicking chains, the horse has never experienced them and has a bad experience in a trailer? Wouldn’t be a great place to introduce them.

Something has happened to get that mare upset enough to forget her manners and former good experiences. The way to solve the problem is answer how and why it started.

[Guilherme]

The thought of a horse flailing around in a trailer with a “kicking chain” on is not a happy one. IIRC these things are designed to work as a “natural, negative consequence” to a kicking action. The likely presumed “venue” is an open area or maybe a box stall where there is room for the chain to do it’s work. In the confines of a trailer I don’t see it as being that effective. And I do see a risk that the damage done could be less to the horse and more to the sides of the trailer. Which could cause some metal tearing and now you can add sharp metal edges to a flailing chain and a terrified or aggressive horse. This could quite easily take care of your vet’s next boat payment.

G.

P.S. Your trailer mechanic will be able to make his boat payment, too.

[Larbear]

@beowulf

I don’t know what he did, but he did something big – I pulled over as soon as I could, and when I opened the trailer door I was absolutely horrified - somehow, one of the planks of the trailer floor had gotten loose (bolt hole was there, but the bolt wasn’t!) and four of the boards had been shifted up the trailer wall under his feet — meaning, you could see asphalt where his hooves were supposed to be.

OMG! That is absolutely terrifying!

[FraggleRock]

I’ll be the odd one out here and admit I have used kicking chains in a trailer!

Little mare trailered fine aside from the odd stomp and kick which is nothing out the normal for her in the barn either. Had to trailer her weekly with my in-laws horse and their trailer too. They had a nicer trailer, newer, brighter more room etc but she was kicking the crap out of the trailer. I was convinced she just wanted to be on the right side, but they wouldn’t switch her because they thought she would kick across to hit their horse. So we ended up using a kicking chain on her. We would load her and then put the chain on (single chain around her right ankle), and remove it after she was off the trailer. Never had any issues, mare stopped kicking the trailer to pieces , and eventually the in-laws agrees to switch her to the left side- where she did just fine without the chain

Not an ideal thing to do, but she had worn a kicking chain in her stall before I bought her. She survived, kicking chain is collecting dust in the barn now.

[Sansena]

Has anyone put a camera in the trailer to actually see what’s going on?
Is the floor of the trailer bed with anything for trailering? If so, what?
How soon into the start of the trip does she typically start kicking?

And, OP, have you ever ridden in the back of a trailer? I suggest you do so. Have your friend close you in there, alone of course, and try to stay standing without keeping both hands braced against the sides of the trailer.

I think kicking chains are a bad idea. I could see using them MAYBE ONCE in an emergent situation, but not as a customary thing to address kicking when the behavior is relatively new.

There’s something else going on here and kicking chains aren’t going to solve it. Horses don’t throw themselves over the divider and over the butt bar for no reason. She’s trying to tell you something. It’s your job to figure out what it is.

I kind of feel sorry for this horse.

[Risk-Averse_Rider]

Mr. Blondie used to kick in my 2-horse straight load with a ramp. He kicks when he’s pissed at something. I tried kick chains. He didn’t care. At a trainer’s recommendation, I tried breeding hobbles (with the trailer just going slowly around the driveway). He figured out how to stand so he could still kick. Finally, I gave up and made a pad to put behind him. It’s sized such that it sandwiches between the butt bar and the ramp. The center is some excess 2" thick rubber mats from my trailer floor. That’s wrapped in some bubble wrap, and then there are couple heavy-duty tarps, secured with duct tape (the tape is on the ramp side). About once a year, I have to replace the outer tarp. He stick kicks occasionally, but doesn’t damage himself or the trailer, and he kicks much less with the pad. My assumption is that he doesn’t find it as satisfying for some reason of his own.

Bonus - back when we were hunting, on cold mornings I would lay it down flat, then dismount onto it. Much nicer on my frozen tootsies.

Clearly, this wouldn’t be a solution for a horse who flings itself around in the trailer, but it might come in handy for someone with a recreational kicker.

[bigbaytb]

@Sansena

Has anyone put a camera in the trailer to actually see what’s going on?
Is the floor of the trailer bed with anything for trailering? If so, what?
How soon into the start of the trip does she typically start kicking?

And, OP, have you ever ridden in the back of a trailer? I suggest you do so. Have your friend close you in there, alone of course, and try to stay standing without keeping both hands braced against the sides of the trailer.

I think kicking chains are a bad idea. I could see using them MAYBE ONCE in an emergent situation, but not as a customary thing to address kicking when the behavior is relatively new.

There’s something else going on here and kicking chains aren’t going to solve it. Horses don’t throw themselves over the divider and over the butt bar for no reason. She’s trying to tell you something. It’s your job to figure out what it is.

I kind of feel sorry for this horse.

I keep my trailer serviced every year, besides me stripping out the pads and everything to inspect flooring, etc. The trailer is all aluminum.

Yes, I have ridden in a back of a trailer. My trainer years ago made me stand back there before ever trailered a horse on my own. I am a careful driver. The horses that I have had have always self loaded because they are eager to go where we are having fun. Either when I was trailering both or just one. It has never been an issue. That I do know. Many people like me to trailer their horses because they trust me and know I am a very careful and considerate person with my and their horses. If the 2 trainers that suggested the kicking chains thought it was my driving, they would have said my driving sucks in a heart beat, but they ask me to trailer horses with mine often, so I know that is not the issue.

The kicking would start from the time the truck started. She’d bang around for a couple minutes and then it would stop. A few times, I drove 5 minutes to pick up my boyfriend and his horse. So it seemed that if she was in the trailer for more than 5 minutes alone, shed really kick hard and bang around and then stop once I got up to speed on a highway. The last time, she didn’t care about the highway and just let it fly. Even when we had to extract her, get medical attention, etc. She walked back on the trailer (after we put it back together) and didn’t make a peep. (I did take back roads home and had someone drive behind me to watch her, I left the upper doors open. She didn’t make a peep then, but she was drugged a bit.)

When I first bought the horse. She would paw hard in cross ties, in her stall if she was alone in the barn and in the trailer . I have worked with her and she now she does not paw and is relaxed. Only in the trailer if shes standing for too long. She always loaded fine, but I had to lead her in. Not much hesitation. This past couple weekends, she has started to self load with or without another horse on the trailer. I Just stand there and she waits for the butt bar to go up, which she has always done. She never disagrees going on the trailer and is always mannerly going off the trailer. If there was an issue, she would let me know.

She used to be a bully on the ground and did not know personal space and would challenge you if you tried to lunge her. Lots of ground work has made this horse from Worrying and being nasty to being well mannered, respectful and easy to manage. She also used to not want to ride away from other horses. But that has been going great. At the hunt this weekend, the rider behind me had an issue after a ditch. While the rest of the first field galloped away, I stopped my mare. She stood quietly as the rider had to ask permission do dismount, replace a stirrup leather and remount. We then lead the field to find the rest of the group at a check. Before, it would have been impossible to get her to stop. So she has made a lot of head way.

So I think that its just her getting mad about being in a trailer by herself. I have figured the training methods to get her over much of her bullying and temperment and has turned out to be quite the nice horse (she was already a nice horse when I bought her, just needed not to be such an alpha) . Thus why I asked for help about kicking chains or hobbles as those were suggested to me by excellent trainers who would only use that as a last resort.

[SonnysMom]

OP- You indicate that your trailer is a 2000. So is mine. My horse Finnegan started scrambling on my trailer last year. He never did that before. I had DH take a good look at the trailer. He decided to replace the back axle. We had replaced the front one the year before since I bent it when I hit a pothole. I now have 2 new axles. My axles are rubber torsion axles. Basically over time rubber gets very hard and no longer shock absorbs the way it used to. It was giving my horse a rougher ride. He stopped scrambling once the axle was replaced. Just food for thought.

[bigbaytb]

Sonnysmom. I do get my trailer serviced every spring, but I will have the trailer and my truck checked too. (will have a camera added to my trailer). My other horse has shown any issues in the trailer though.