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Kitten in Pain (Maybe?)

I’d love some hive mind thoughts on this.

This guy has been with me since he was ~ 5 weeks old. He arrived healthy considering he received no care of note for those first 5 weeks. At around 10 weeks he was introduced to another kitten who had completed a 2 week quarantine. I knew this second kitten had a wicked URI when found but arrived to me having completed medication, clear eyed, no concerns from vet about introductions, and I waited an extra 2 weeks as a precaution.

More or less the first kitten hasn’t been 100% since introduction. It has been 3 months of spiking high fevers, eye funk, excessive sneezing, bouts of raspy breathing, etc. The second kitten never had a re-emergence of symptoms and was placed into an only cat household and is a thriving.

Kitten 1 has had two negative combo tests and is fully vaccinated. The vet is pretty set on Herpes that his system just can’t kick. We are doing antibiotics + Famciclovir and eye meds for the latest flare.

All of this backstory to say - He was horrible for the vet this last visit. As in voided his bladder + bowels, tried to puncture multiple people, and apparently just went ballistic. At 4 lbs it was highly unwelcomed behavior but they got the appointment done. My vet had a heart to heart that I needed to be prepared he may be one they request to be sedated before visits going forward. I appreciated their honesty and was both shocked and embarrassed.

When he came back out he was full body shaking and growling in the carrier. He growled when I reached into the carrier but allowed me to pick him up without issue and then let a tech pet him while he was in my arms. Every vet visit has involved shots and I get that he’s over it. t I also pride myself in having safe well-mannered animals. I don’t want to have a cat that is a liability for my vets. He stretched out and slept totally relaxed the whole way home so it doesn’t appear to be generalized travel anxiety but rather targeted anxiety/aggression.

Tonight I went to pick him up and he gave a sharp warning noise. It caught me off guard and I instantly stopped thinking he was spiking a fever again and felt cruddy. He then took off after a toy and did acrobatics including bouncing off of the walls and vaulting off of furniture. I tried the same lift a minute later and he happily hopped into my arms and wanted to cuddle. If I’m being honest, he’s also kind of an ass for getting his toenails done. It isn’t anything that I can’t manage but it is not behavior I would tolerate with my other cats (lots of back talking and growling). Until this vet visit, the idea of him following through with teeth wasn’t even on my radar. I am starting to wonder if I may have inadvertently fostered some attitude towards being manipulated when it isn’t 100% his idea.

Has anyone else navigated potential behavioral issues in an animal that also genuinely does not feel great all of the time? How did you determine your parameters for what is okay/not okay? With dogs, I have always been told that it is a mistake to correct growling because it is a communication tool and if you silence it then you can create a dog that goes straight for a bite. Does this same logic hold with a cat?

I’m really not sure what you’re asking with that long story, but I’d never reprimand any animal in pain, for pretty much any reason. I’m also not sure why you’d want to “manipulate” an animal if you thought this might hurt him, or if he was already afraid of human contact.

The little guy’s obviously had a very rough time of it, so why not just cut him some slack? And why be “embarrassed” by a hurt animal’s perfectly normal reaction?

Sorry. Perhaps other will be more helpful.

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You can establish a relationship with a cat but you cant train them like a dog. They aren’t pack or herd animals. You can’t teach a cat to not growl or spit or bite or claw or meow. You can however gain its trust.

Kittens can’t be taught things at all. They don’t have the bandwidth.

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Of course you can train a cat. You can train kittens. Negative reinforcement like a spray bottle or positive reinforcement like a treat work quite well.

It sounds like there are two issues here, right? A mystery recurring illness that is maybe herpes. And perhaps a behavioral issue that may or may not be tied to the illness.

A vet advising the owner that the cat is a menace & needs sedation for visits after one bad time is weird. Especially in a kitten. @GraceLikeRain you weren’t present for all of this, right? I’d not put too much weight on that visit, personally, but I would worry how the vet is handling the cat behind closed doors.

If he’s growling when handled, I’d try to understand what’s driving that, and pain is likely. Cats are such stoic little creatures. We may not see any signs of distress except a complaint when poked in the wrong way. What are his triggers?

If this set of meds doesn’t solve the illness issue, is a second opinion from another vet clinic an option? Preferably one where you can stay in the room & see how he’s handled.

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For some context I’ve brought in just shy of 50 cats to this vet through my rescue work. They carry my kittens around the front office and text me pictures when I do drop offs. I’m known for raising really solid well adjusted cats that are easy to handle. Apparently his behavior has been slowly declining but this time he was apparently bad to a degree that was unprecedented.

Since covid their policy has been all work is done in the back. The last 12 kittens haven’t been an issue. I’m more than willing to advocate that his next visit is done with me present but respect that this may not be feasible. We have a handful of clinics cleared by the rescue so I’m hesitant to try and establish a new relationship with an unknown vet. I also do not like the idea of placing a tech at risk for a puncture by not disclosing or risking the rescues reputation.

@Red_Barn that’s what I’m struggling to discern. He is reacting to being handled but I cannot determine if the root is pain, fear, or “don’t make me”. Some adolescent attitude isn’t anything I haven’t navigated but I’ve never had chronically sick thrown into the mix. Positive reinforcement is my go to but if he is coming unglued from a basic scruff by a stranger, we’ve got a steep hill ahead.

@Scribbler all of my cats know sit, wait, up, off, here, and load up. I’ve found them very easy to train within reason. It’s always been tricks though rather than trying to reaproach a behavioral issue.

It’s my belief that cats are inherently shy, friendly, submissive or aggressive and there is little you can do to change that. I’ve had kittens from the same litter, raised in the same way, be all over the map in how they interact with people or handle stress and it tended to show up around the same age as your kitty. I would not overlook the stress of another cat he didn’t want to be around or a bunch of medical treatments as the source of his herpes flare. Can you tone it down to things less invasive?

This vet in Turkey has lots of videos on how they (patiently) deal with bad actors, but this is my favorite because the cat is so over the top and relentless about voicing his displeasure. LOL There probably won’t be much you can do to train out the kitten’s personality or negative associations so finding a vet who treats ferals might be a good idea.

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Thank you so much. I agree a lot can be innate but also want to do my part to raise a solid citizen and keep people safe. This looks like a great avenue for growing my own education. The point about a clinic familiar with ferals is a great point. I can also talk with the vet and see which of their techs is most familiar with these behaviors and schedule around their schedule as opposed to him getting paired with a less experienced tech. I’m also going to try and bring him in a few times for low stress visits where I drop off snacks for the clinic and he comes in and out without having to be handled.

I know you like and trust this vet, but sometimes vets get stuck in a fixed idea of what might be wrong, and focus on it to the exclusion of other things. Mine does this, and sometimes I have to say, “Look, can we also look at X and Y? It might be nothing, but I’d feel better if we could cross them off the list.”

Two negative combo tests = FIV and FeLV, I take it? Has he been tested for FIP? Some of the symptoms sound similar: https://vcahospitals.com/know-your-pet/feline-infectious-peritonitis

Have you treated for ulcers? With this much medicine in his system, even at this young age he could definitely have developed them.

He’s trying to tell you something. He’s not misbehaving just because. When my cats don’t feel well, I never correct them. It’s not their fault they feel like crap. Something’s going on with him.

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No but that’s definitely a line of conversation to bring up next time. To date I haven’t dealt firsthand with FIP but did a little reading when another foster ended up with an effusive FIP kitten. I don’t think he could have wet given the lack of a distended belly and that the raspy lungs have gone away for weeks at a time but dry seems more feasible. It sounds like eye inflammation is often the only visible inflammation sign so that could align. There doesn’t seem to be a single really reliable test but perhaps there are a few tests that knit together to create at least a strong guess. Thanks for bringing that up. Getting to the root of his discomfort is definitely a priority.

He eats eagerly and doesn’t have any noticeable issues following meals, normal BM, etc so ulcers seem less likely but definitely haven’t been ruled out.

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Totally agree, and well put!

I’ve had multiple cats with head scratcher issues improve when treated for ulcers, despite being good eaters and no obvious gastric issues. It’s led me to think it’s far more common than we realize. Pepcid is certainly an easy thing to throw at the board.

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Thank you sharing that. Super interesting. What I’ve read has led me to believe it would be quite obvious but I also read the same about equine ulcers 20 years ago and gosh hasn’t that changed. I’ll confirm with my vet that there’s no concern adding Pepcid in with his current meds but that seems like a really easy thing to test.

Yup, and it’s so easy and cheap to do, you may as well try it, @GraceLikeRain - just 1/4 of a regular Pepcid in the morning. In a few days, you may see a totally different kitten.

It does worry me that he can’t kick the infection, or that it keeps recurring. Has he been on the same antibiotic this entire time? My vet will sometimes tag-team antibiotics if the cat isn’t getting well, or the infection is bad enough. Usually it’s Convenia with Veraflox or similar.

I hope it’s not FIP, for both of your sakes - I’ve never had a kitten with it either, and I dread the day I do. FIV and FeLV are horrible enough, but at least you get a little more time - and it can be quite good time, too.

No. In the previous instances he was getting a shot of metacam and an antibiotic (name escapes me). We’ve done 3 or 4 rounds of that over probably 10 weeks. I’ve also been balancing a dogs cancer diagnosis and a cat with cancer so until I pull records on Monday my working memory is rusty at best.

This latest time is when we switched to famciclovir and doxy. Because of the risk of a pill not being swallowed fully they are always reticent to do oral meds when there is something they can inject instead but clearly what we were doing wasn’t working. He’s actually pretty awesome to pill at home so they cleared him for oral meds.

Between these dips he’s very normal energy level so I’m hoping it is something he can fully kick rather than something like FIP.

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One other thing I have a question about: I take it that you didn’t go into the exam room with him on this last visit, and heard all of this second-hand from the vet. Are you sure the vet was there the entire time? I know you trust them, but is there a new tech that might a.) not know how to handle a cat and therefore inadvertently hurt/scared him in some way, or b.) might have purposely hurt/scared him in some way?

It’s not unheard of, and is definitely something that would be in the back of my mind, if one of my cats suddenly acted out in a manner that just wasn’t like them. We’ve all heard the horror stories, after all.

Clients stay in the exam room, animals go to the back, animal comes back to the exam room, and then the vet comes in to debrief.

I can’t say for sure the vet was present the entire time he was in the back. The tech that brought him to the back and then back out is one I’ve known for about two years. For simplicity sake, I didn’t mention it but there were two other kittens transported to the same appointment. Both were happy go lucky coming back up. Could something have been done maliciously? Sure. Do I think it’s likely? Not really. I’ll casually probe about any new techs though just in case.

Pup had a major flare up of lord knows what over the weekend so we have a visit today. Kitten will go along with me and just hang out. If he seems okay, I’ll let him out in the exam room and feed him some treats to try and create a low pressure neutral vet experience.

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Update

Some reluctance loading into the carrier but traveled beautifully. Was all purrs for his favorite vet tech at the front and then start shaking when a male client walked out. He hung out with me and was obviously anxious but had moments of interacting normally between anxious bunnying.

He had an ear he was holding weird so I ended up having them do a quick exam. He instantly growled at the tech followed by open mouth hissing. The vet stretched protocol and allowed me to hold and he was nervous but very obedient. Thankfully the ear looks good so we let him hop back in the carrier. We talked through some felineaway infused towels and other supports. We will go to liquid gaba if needed but he’s very open to trying to work with me handling him for appointments as long as it is safe. I think if we’d needed to ear swab or poke him he would have unraveled but hopefully low stress interactions like this will help reestablish some vet trust.

I think he has a very low stress threshold and probably won’t ever be an “easy” cat at the vet but I’m hopeful we can get him back out of the caution sticker on the chart territory. Thank you for all of the insight and support. I’m hoping that last visit will be an anomaly and together we can set him up for better success going forward.

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I was thinking FIP also. It starts with a kitty cold then can mutates to the fatal FIP which is a mutation of the coronovirus. Know way too much about FIP. :frowning:

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I’m sorry to hear that you’ve had to deal with FIP. Was yours a steady decline or did they improve and then decline in cycles?

Lenard was about 5 months old, went off his feed and started what ended up being $3000 in diagnostics to rule out everything else. He had dry FIP which is a milder form that progressed to wet which is faster and much more aggressive. From start to end was about 3 months . So sad. He was just a baby. Never got a chance. From shelter to sick to dead.

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I’ve treated two for FIP, they were both dry but this doesn’t sound like FIP to me. Have you done bloodwork? Typically (but not always) FIP kitties have a low A/G ratio. There is no “test” for FIP but there are specific markers that help support the diagnosis.

That being said, assuming teeth are good I would suspect food allergies. You can test for those but the easiest way to confirm them is to try a hydrolyzed protein diet. Definitely ask you vet about it, kittens obviously have different nutritional needs than adult cats. I’ve fixed several adult cats with chronic respiratory stuff this way.

Good luck!