KK ultra loose ring snaffle fit problem?

[HoofHeartSoul]

I have my horse in a KK ultra loose ring snaffle.

The problem(s) are :

1: The mouthpiece "sags"and hits his lower teeth. It does NOT matter how high I put it up into the corners of his lips via tightening the bridle since that only lift the rings of the bit up and the mouthpiece of the bit is still free to sag.

2: The double joints of the mouthpiece lozenge seem to lay right next to the bars of his lower jaw and I can’t help but think that if I take even a slight more contact on one side of his mouth or the other the joint will rub over his bar. maybe he possibly has a narrow lower jaw?

has anyone had this problem?

I am thinking of moving back to a single jointed snaffle because of problem 2…

but unless I get a bit with a fixed mouthpiece connected to the rings or eggbutt, etc .it won;t help problem 1.

[Nestor]

The bit sounds too big. Try a smaller size. It should be straight across the mouth if it fits properly.

[alibi_18]

What size of bit were you using before?

What is the size of that bit?

It would be interresting to see pictures.

[HoofHeartSoul]

I have tried a smaller size ( tried 5.5 inch and 5.25 inch), if I go any smaller it seems it will pinch his lips. the bit/moutpiece sagging doesn’t seem to be affected by the size of the bit.

I will take pictures if I can.

[Nous]

Have you made sure the arrow on the snaffle is on the left side of the horse and pointing forwards?

[HoofHeartSoul]

It is indeed on the left side and pointing forward. I am starting to think it is just my horses mouth. :no:

[alibi_18]

I still think your bit it not properly ajusted/doesn’t fit but that does have nothing to do with your horse’s mouth conformation.

[HoofHeartSoul]

I am in agreement that the bit doesn’t fit, being not properly adjusted is debatable.

I understand how to fit/adjust a bit, but have this particular thing happen.

His bit is a 5 and 3/4 inch, I tried a 5 1/4 and a 5-1/2 ( loose rings are also to be fitted a bit bigger).

Both the 5-1/2 and 5-1/4 were too small (especially the 5-1/4). He has fleshy lips and his lips would cover/ sit too close to the area where the loose ring rotates and would pinch if any smaller.

I am wondering if I am confusing people when I say “sag” the bit’s mouthpiece will form a V towards the front of his mouth/towards his incisors and the bit will hit is lower canines.

If I tighten the cheek pieces any further it just lifts the rings of the bit higher and the mouthpiece still sags .

I can understand I guess if the bit was too large how it could “sag” but the bit is not too large at least relative to his lips!

[alibi_18]

[QUOTE=HoofHeartSoul;8404273]
I am in agreement that the bit doesn’t fit, being not properly adjusted is debatable.

I understand how to fit/adjust a bit, but have this particular thing happen.

His bit is a 5 and 3/4 inch, I tried a 5 1/4 and a 5-1/2 ( loose rings are also to be fitted a bit bigger).

Both the 5-1/2 and 5-1/4 were too small (especially the 5-1/4). He has fleshy lips and his lips would cover/ sit too close to the area where the loose ring rotates and would pinch if any smaller.

I am wondering if I am confusing people when I say “sag” the bit’s mouthpiece will form a V towards the front of his mouth/towards his incisors and the bit will hit is lower canines.

If I tighten the cheek pieces any further it just lifts the rings of the bit higher and the mouthpiece still sags .

I can understand I guess if the bit was too large how it could “sag” but the bit is not too large at least relative to his lips![/QUOTE]

Here is a picture of a well placed bit in a horse mouth

If your bit is able to touch your horse’s lower canine, it means that the bit is sitting way way too low, and probably too big too.

That picture shows a badly fitted bit. It is place way too low.

A well fitted loose-ring should be just close enough of the lips.

Here, the bit is too wide
Too big bit here as well

Really badly fitted bridle. Bit is hanging too low (there shouldn’t be a space between the cheek pieces and the side of the noseband) and the bit is probably too big as well.

Like I said, without pictures of your horse’s mouth and his bits, there is nothing much we can say.

[HoofHeartSoul]

Thanks for the links and the visuals.

I took a couple blurry photos, and he wasn’t being cooperative as it was dinner time. The bit rings were cleaned after I took his bridle off.

I can get some better pictures tomorrow and some of the whole bridle placement/fitting. The bit pictured is the 5-3/4 inch.

http://s154.photobucket.com/user/Horse_Junkie/library/Bit

[Kolsch]

I think I have your horse’s mouth twin. What breed is yours?

Short mouth, fleshy lips and tongue, narrow and shallow lower jaw.

The only bit mine likes is a Myler Eggbutt WB33WL.

[LarkspurCO]

[QUOTE=HoofHeartSoul;8401597]
I have my horse in a KK ultra loose ring snaffle.

The problem(s) are :

1: The mouthpiece "sags"and hits his lower teeth. It does NOT matter how high I put it up into the corners of his lips via tightening the bridle since that only lift the rings of the bit up and the mouthpiece of the bit is still free to sag.[/QUOTE]

Which lower teeth do you mean? In one of your photos it looks like the bit is touching an upper canine, but I can’t imagine how it could clank against the lower incisors. Is that what you mean? Oh, nevermind, I see where you said it was the lower canines. Hmmm…

When you pick up the contact the bit will raise up, and horses usually like to work the bit around with the tongue. But the real test is how he goes in the bit. If he doesn’t like it, well, that’s it. Next.

2: The double joints of the mouthpiece lozenge seem to lay right next to the bars of his lower jaw and I can’t help but think that if I take even a slight more contact on one side of his mouth or the other the joint will rub over his bar. maybe he possibly has a narrow lower jaw?

The bit doesn’t normally rest directly on the bars. Horses have flaps inside their lips that cover the bars, and the bit will normally rest on the lip “cushion.” I borrowed this picture from a Myler bitting video:

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i213/hfournier/Dressage/Untitled.png

But if the center joints are resting directly over the bars, that might be a problem (although can’t picture a horse that takes a bit this size having a jaw so narrow that this would happen).

I see more bits in your future. :lol:

[alibi_18]

After seeing your pictures, I still think that your bit hangs too low.

However, the bit size seems either just good or a bit too small.
Some horses never develop any sign of rubbing/pinching at the corners. Some horses do have problems no matter what.

But a 6’’ bit might be in your future.

Yes, a picture from the side where the whole bridle can be seen would help.

[Nestor]

OP, does a 5 1/4 sag in his mouth? If not, ride in it. Having just watched another boarder go through this, and asking multiple professionals, including a super qualified dentist… you need a SMALLER bit. Per the dentist: “you don’t fit a bit to the lips.” Don’t assume it will rub. Just ride in it! If it rubs, try an eggbutt instead. Don’t go bigger, it doesn’t fit as it is. A larger bit will just sag more.

Also keep in mind that when you have contact, that will help the position of the bit in the horse’s mouth.

[x-halt-salute]

I’m the other boarder Nestor speaks of, and I was just about to reply to you when my horse’s bit fitting adventures were mentioned independently. My horse has the fattest lips I’ve ever seen on a horse as well as a history of lip pinching/rubbing at the slightest provocation, and we’re dealing with similar issues.

I’ve just ordered a 5" KK Ultra bradoon for my mare on the recommendation of my trainer. This is after trying the 5.75 and 5.25, which both draped down (much as you describe) and lay too close to the weymouth, no matter how the cheeks are adjusted for either bit. She normally wears a 5.25" snaffle. Historically, 5" snaffles have pinched badly, though her mouth itself may be small enough that without the ridiculously fleshy lips they would fit. I wouldn’t have independently decided to try the 5" bradoon but I trust my trainer and dentist, whose comments Nestor recounted above (NB trainer doesn’t want my horse in an eggbutt, else I would have gone that route for the smaller size). We’ll see what happens when it arrives.

I still wonder if some aspect of mouth morphology predisposes some horses to problems with how jointed bits hang, though I have no information to offer beyond the anecdotal evidence of my own bit fitting tribulations.

[Kolsch]

Going smaller did not work for my guy. My theory for trying out the mullen type bits was that I thought that all the fleshiness combined with such a narrow lower jaw led to a situation where a normal jointed snaffle was unstable and compressed the soft tissues far too much. He liked the Pee Wee well enough, but that particular Myler was the best. (Gave him some tongue room I think)

[x-halt-salute]

Interesting theory, Kolsch.

My horse has been rather fussy-mouthed with every bit I’ve ever tried her in (every style of single and double jointed snaffle I have been able to get my hands on, plus the Sprenger Duo which I think was too thick for her liking). At some point I just accepted that this is how she is, regardless of the bit she wears or the quality of her training or the quietness of my hands. I wonder if it’s worth trying a mullen or Myler-type bit. She fits the narrow jaw/fleshy mouth profile to a T.

Something to ponder while I’m on “stall rest”…

[Kolsch]

The Duo is impossibly large! I’m certainly glad I gave that Myler a try. I was able to rent it before buying, so it would have been no great loss had it not worked out. It, and a Micklem, make my boy very happy. Either by themselves are not as good as the combination. Like I said, short mouth, fleshy lips, fat tongue, low palate and a narrow/shallow jaw. The MB33WL was pretty much made for him. Another I would have liked to try was the Blue Bomber Happy Tongue. I also own a horse that is the complete opposite in mouth conformation- he goes well in just about anything, right now I have him in a KK Ultra.

If one Googles “short mouth” and horse, a few of the bit banks mention that the short mouthed horse often cannot go in a jointed snaffle as the joint causes the bit to hang too low. FWIW.

[purplnurpl]

Glad the thread went towards mullens. I was just going to suggest trying something with no joint… OR get some sealtex and wrap your ultra in it so the double joint is held together. It will stay flexible but the joint is essentially gone.

[x-halt-salute]

Hey Kolsch,

Can you say anything more about what the Myler Eggbutt WB33WL model is? I can’t seem to find it online, but maybe my google-fu is not working. I’m not down with the Myler lingo yet. Is it one of the dressage legal ones?

Sorry to hijack your thread, HoofHeartSoul, but hopefully our issues are similar enough that this is useful to you as well.