Knocking verticals (exclusively)

[pheobs]

I have a super talented OTTB who is a jumping fiend, super athletic and willing. I have gotten her comfortable over 2’3"-2’6" courses but my trainer has been pushing her a bit with heights during our past couple jumps schools.

The problem is, she has starting knocking down verticals (only the verticals) once they are at about 2’9"-3’. She clears anything with a spread so it’s not the height… Although she does have a tendancy to rush and I am sure that is not helping as I have to work to keep her from getting too flat and fast.

Any suggestions on excercises to help with veritcals? Any experience with this problem yourself?

[ACMEeventing]

Is she knocking them with her fronts or hinds?

[pheobs]

Fronts

[tbchick84]

Without seeing video, I would think she’s jumping flat, not using herself correctly, or getting poor takeoff spots. It could be a lot of things.

[babecakes]

A placing pole to help her get into the right position to set her up to use her hind end better.

[yourcolorfuladdictio]

She probably just needs to be set up better for it. Most horses don’t respect verticals unless they are made to respect them. I like to use my turns to set up the horse and will repeatedly use a figure-8 shape with a vertical in the middle to get the point across. I setup through the turn, as it’s hard to rush through a turn, and then go forward to the base on the last stride or two.

[Winding_Down]

I would take videos and then watch how she jumps in slow motion - and compare to spreads. Also look at how you may be riding verticals differently from spreads.

It could be so many things… as others have noted. Breaking it down and watching exactly how she jumps over verticals as compared to spreads should help find out exactly what factors are different.

[Jeannette_formerly_ponygyrl]

Sounds like some simple grids - trot into an x, canter on to another jump or two or three ( progressively building to vertical, over, vertical, or a series of bounces) might be two of my starting points.

[Engage]

V-poles on the top pole.

[The_Centaurian]

[QUOTE=Jeannette, formerly ponygyrl;8748409]
Sounds like some simple grids - trot into an x, canter on to another jump or two or three ( progressively building to vertical, over, vertical, or a series of bounces) might be two of my starting points.[/QUOTE]

She is jumping across rather than up, which is a good thing XC and over oxers, but not the best technique for verticals.

I would do what Jeannette said, adding that the canter is different for verticals in particular and stadium and general-- even when you aren’t jumping, try to incorporate 20m circles of “bouncy” canter into your flatwork. You have established forward, but now you have to teach her UP.

Totting jumps and hillwork will help to develop the muscles she needs to be successful.

Also, pictures, please!

[beowulf]

you said she rushes - are you trotting the approach or cantering?

i would guess, just on experience with past rushers, that if she is rushing the quality of the canter is lost. horses need balance, rhythm and impulsion to obtain a good bascule over fences - if she is knocking with her fronts it is likely she is jumping over her shoulder (relying on sheer athleticism over working over her body) or she is getting flat and not being tidy with her front limbs. both can be fixed with the same exercises.

personally, i like working on the canter for this problem as i find most issues regarding dropping rails always boils down to the quality of the canter. if you’re trotting poles because she’s rushing, IMHO, stop – unless your trainer says otherwise.

personally i like to take this out to the field, so to speak - but it takes a bit of work. i like to find a nice big novice or training log, and then about 30ft away, perpendicular to it, place a grid for 3-5 jumps. first can be a crossrail but the rest should be verticals with the last being an oxer. you can vary the distance but i generally do something like a 2 stride, a few 1 strides and the last being a bounce.

you pick up the canter and circle around the log - in your best showjump/jungle-cat/panther etc canter, jump the log and head to the line. maintain the rhythm and balance - if you can, try to think of your three seatbones and imagine ‘driving’ the horse to the fence rather than rushing. think of sleek, powerful strides, and feel your seatbones ‘sink’ into the saddle - your hips, or pelvis really, should be dictating every stride.

the set up would look something like this: (please excuse how rough it is)
http://i63.tinypic.com/ww0zee.png

i personally like this exercise to be out XC because the terrain is different and requires more thinking on yours and their behalf; the big log at the beginning (it can be any rounded jump, really - just a jump that really naturally sets the horse up for a good bascule - rolltop works too) will set you up for a sleek and powerful canter, but you need to ride it – and then going down the line after getting that big canter that you want will help keep the horse’s momentum going. i rinse/repeat.

if/when she rushes, what do you do?

personally, i do not want to jump a fence unless i am 100% satisfied with the canter. don’t have the canter you want? circle and try again. MAKE yourself get that canter - don’t feel like you have to jump the jump just because you’ve circled once or twice - having a green horse is all about setting them up for success in the clearest way you can, so if you are not happy with the canter, go back down to a trot (or a walk even) and canter again. if you jump a jump without the canter you want, of course the landing will be less than stellar. you have all the time in the world to make this work; the jumps aren’t going anywhere.

remember that the three parts that make or break a clear stadium rounds are rhythm, balance and impulsion - the three each make the leg of a stool – without one, the others are lost. too much of one, and the stool is unbalanced.

[kcmel]

[QUOTE=The Centaurian;8748425]
She is jumping across rather than up, which is a good thing XC and over oxers, but not the best technique for verticals.

I would do what Jeannette said, adding that the canter is different for verticals in particular and stadium and general-- even when you aren’t jumping, try to incorporate 20m circles of “bouncy” canter into your flatwork. You have established forward, but now you have to teach her UP.

Totting jumps and hillwork will help to develop the muscles she needs to be successful.

Also, pictures, please! :)[/QUOTE]

This was the case with my horse. We worked on getting the right canter at 2’3" to 2’6" so by the time we started jumping higher it was much easier. He still will sometimes get flat and rushy at a show, but he is much better.

Also, maybe check her hocks? My guy is 9, and I ended up having to inject his hocks. Made a huge difference.

[Man_in_Black]

I would set up a round pen with a vertical in it and analyze the horse’s movement minus anyone on their back to get a better idea.

Grids and bounce poles before/after the fence will help with the rushing and help the horse to rock back in front of the fence. I’d say hock injections also if this doesn’t help.

Old school horseman would stand next to a fence and pick up the top wooden rail to clock either the front or back legs. Sounds cruel/traumatizing but your horse could walk away from it more careful.

[Lusoluv]

I would not recommend “poling” your horse - having someone hit the horse with the top pole as he jumps. A bad trainer at my barn did this with a client’s horse and after one or two bangs on the legs, the horse understandably started shying/refusing any jump a person stood near - fearful of another hit. Took weeks to get his confidence back and he was an experienced jumper. Trainer was in a rush to get him clear over bigger fences to move up at the shows. Method backfired big time

[beowulf]

MIB, i think you may want to remove the advice about having a person pole the horse. poling is absolutely not a good practice, either from a horsemanship standpoint or from a training standpoint. the horse will learn to associate the jump with human fault, not his own – not to mention the possibility of a colossal wreck that could seriously harm your horse.

however, OP, it is absolutely imperative that if your horse hits the rail she knows that it isn’t a good feeling. no boots up front for this horse – and if you can, wooden/heavy poles only. they are less likely to move if knocked and serve as a good reminder for lazy-limbed horses.

some respected UL riders i know (as in very respected) suggest teaching the horse to jump over the square-sided poles rather than rounded poles. i don’t know how i feel about that.

when i introduce jumping to all of our green beans (most of them are OTTBs) i never boot them up. they don’t get boots up front until we are ready to compete.

[NMK]

Sometimes it helps to jump verticals from a bit of an angle, to tighten up front end. Please do not pole the horse, work on better balance on the take off jumping verticals at angles is helpful.) Work on collecting the canter some–go forward, come back, find the middle.

[findeight]

Two problems generally cause this.

1. Not setting the horse up, take her to the base, make her put that other step in there, don’t fear a chip, retrain your eye away from the long one you really don’t want on an outside course over a solid obstacle.

2. Not having a proper canter installed. That’s a flatwork ussue. You need to be able to control your stride length to get to the base on the flat before you out a fence in front if her. My trainers would not raise the fences for me until I could ride the canter to the proper spot.

Long and weak can cause rotational falls so it’s a concern if you are being asked to jump higher when you are not able to set horse up better. Not sure why trainer is raising them here with these issues. More solid fences will back a horse off a little and force them to rock back and set up but they don’t fix the underlying holes in training.

Plus that, when mine started not wanting to get to the base and look for the long ones to their fences? Their hocks were bothering them, can’t ask a horse to power off sore hocks and understand they will leave long and flat to avoid rocking back and stressing them.

Horses with sore hocks don’t limp and it’s vary common for OTTBs, and most working horses as they age, to develop arthritic changes in joints, particularly hocks. There are good ways to manage that including joint injections and things like Legend, Adequan and Pentosan.

I would give your vet a call, no fair to blame the horse if she’s hurting, especially if that can be managed.

[The_Centaurian]

Agree to check the hocks, because that’s essentially what you’re going to ask her to do, rock back onto her hocks more.

Stumbled upon this article and thought of this thread: http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/features/pole-exercises-to-improve-canter-525267

[gumtree]

A lot of good advise given already.

Assuming the horse doesn’t have any hind end issues.

IME this is usually because the horse is not using its hind end effectively it at all. “Pulling” itself over the fence instead of “pushing” off with its hind end.

For some horses, a lot of horses this is intuitive, lots of others have to be taught with different tricks, drills until the light comes on and stays on.

Kind of the same as teaching/getting young horses to appreciate how much easier, more comfortable it is to turn using the correct lead.

Some figure it out much quicker than others. The switch leads approaching the turn, some don’t get it right away and fail to switch into we’re well into the turn. Others just continue to “run out” in a wider circle/turn.

Personally I like to start all my horses jumping logs of various sizes getting progressively bigger/higher. Spaced well enough apart that if I don’t like how they used themselves on one I can circle around at the same tempo and do it again. As many times as needed and then move to the next one down the line.

I also have a nice uphill jump line along a thick treeline. I can keep them close to the treeline so they can’t think about running out. There is enough of an uphill grade that it pretty much forces them to rock back and use their hind end. If not a stacked fence or stacked logs the fence itself looks stout enough to them they won’t try and cheat it. Any horse that has ability it shouldn’t take them long to figure out the “easy way”.

For horses that just seem to be lazy with their front legs I use jump rails made out of heavy 4X4 pressure treated. I take my saw and cut/rip the edges to form a hexagon (6 sides) or octagon (8 sided). The edges aren’t very “sharp” but sharp enough to add a little extra “sting”. The pressured treated rail is usually a lot heavier than the average pine jump rail. Takes a lot more impact force for them to knock it out of the cups. Stings more even if they don’t.

If they don’t figure out the easy way, use their hind end, fold the landing gear up and there aren’t any soundness issues. In the end that maybe as good as they will ever be.

I am a firm believer in; “All horses can jump most don’t jump very well” That’s why the good ones are expensive.

[TheBrownHorse]

Like others have said: balance. Verticals for the rider seem less intimidating, but for horses, they are much harder to judge.

along with what everyone else has said regarding strengthening her hind end… A great exercises for this is to trot/canter/balance/trot/canter/balance/ to ask for that downward transition to be “up” take a couple of trot steps until balanced and then re ask for the canter. This is engaging that outside hind, while also building balance. Also, LARGE cross rails (think, the center of the cross rail will still be low but taking poles to the top of the standards to create a narrow “low” area. I wouldn’t, at this point in your horses training, hike up the poles all the way to the top, but certainly make a larger cross rail with a trot pole and ask to trot in, straight (almost a “forced” straight) which will REALLY build the hind end strength. That along with low cavalettis at the trot and grid work with a a cross rail, vertical, oxer (maybe say, cross rail, three/four strides, vertical , four strides, oxer… the horse will see the oxer and sit back in preparation and perhaps respect that vertical more)

Anyways, idea. I know your horse does oxers “well” but really struggles with the difficulty of an upright fence. Can you do the cross rail exercise I just mentioned (raising the poles to make a larger X) withOUT the spread, and have the vertical portion of your “oxer” be the same height as the low point of the cross rail? No spread, cross rail behind vertical.

Also, at this point, I would not be cantering fences if there is rushing and unbalance with more than likely a weak hind end. Lots of trotting into things, trot poles can be helpful too.

If your horse is knocking the pole down with the front, it’s almost guaranteed they’re not set up right and lack the strength. A horse who catches behind may be caused by a rider sitting up too fast, too, just like a horse knocking in the front, caused by a rider’s lack of balance and perhaps too ahead of the motion, with not enough balance and the horse “balancing” purely off the hand. When you become airborne, if the horse is simply relying on your hands for support, unless you’ve got magical powers that can hold a horse mid air (which, ok, magical maybe not, but for the less experienced rider and/or horse, near impossible) the lack of contact over the fence is going to cause some problems.

So, lots of trot work. Lots of basics. Don’t put the fences up purely in hope the horse respects them more. I know for me, riding under several GP riders, we work mostly over small fences (2’9" and under, a lot of time, smaller) but balanced, correct, straight. You don’t need height to gain the respect of the jump, all that will end up do is causing a loss of confidence in both of you.