I think the board is in general agreement on the chronically lame ones. But gets trickier for the NQR rabbit hole type ones.
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Interestingly when it all went down with poofy, one of the owners who did not want to be publicly mentioned called up her older BNT who is somewhat of a legend of the sport and he said something to the effect of “oh no, honey… that’s why I always had them euthanized, because at some point they always end up starved somewhere.” - I think the suggestion that it’s a new phenomenon that people can’t retire horses is probably pretty far off base. We are increasingly detached from a society that understands animal husbandry in the sense that they are not people and they don’t have a concept of a loss of the future.
That said, I am not entirely sure about the future of vets willing to put down a pasture sound only young horse. I had to get pretty emphatic with poofy who was three legged lame for nearly a week that I was not happy with his QOL and was not willing to let a 23 year old retired horse live like that when there were myriad complicating issues. I imagine that even finding a vet willing is a challenge in a way it may not have been 20-30 years ago. There are small animal vets now who will not do a behavioral euthanasia for dogs that bite. It seems to be the direction the industry is going to say no to thinks that are ethically uncomfortable for the veterinarian, which I understand, but I am not sure what that means the logistics of this kind of decision look like for a lot of people.
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This is another great point. Anecdotally I know of a couple with some aging, not sound horses, who had a vet yell at them for wanting to put the horses down because the VERY lame one happened to be standing when the vet arrived. He basically told them to call him when it’s catastrophic. They had planned to let both bonded oldies go together (getting a new horse to babysit the Also Lame But Less So oldie was out of the cards) and were made to feel like jerks and abusers BY A VET.
Awful situation, and honestly not in any animal’s best interest.
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About 10 years ago I had a friend with a KS horse. 4 YO ottb. She chose to euthanize. He was having neuro symptoms so although the decision wasn’t easy, seeing his symptoms made her understand what she was dealing with. She was a non-horse person who bought the horse for her beginner tween daughter so she was in way over her head. It was a mess of a situation as they only had the horse 2-3 months. Thankfully she had a good vet to guide her, unfortunately she did not want to pay that good vet for PPE to start with.
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Yes, this is definitely an option. Particularly if said horse has a disease of interest to a researcher there. I know someone who donated a suspected EDM horse to a vet school, and the horse was used for several studies/learning opportunities. As a scientist, I love this approach, particularly if your horse is chill about new adventures and experiences, and wouldn’t be too stressed. As a horse owner, I don’t think I could ever do this, certainly not with my current mare that is similarly looking at an early retirement (she would be a ball of stress until the end and I want all my pets to have a peaceful end - I’d euthanize in the yard with a belly full of grass before putting her through that stress).
Super timely question, fivestride.
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So Dobbin has some issue that precludes him from heavy work but he’s perfectly comfortable with minimal maintenance doing little to no work? It’s just fine to PTS this horse? Pawn him off on someone else and hope they do right by the horse? I disagree and that’s why I think horse owners should plan for a retirement. The fact that horses lack the ability to plan for their own retirement is kinda why we do it for them.
The chronically unsound? Dangerous? Super high maintenance just to keep pasture sound? The ancient ones unlikely to make it through another season without risk of disaster? I think those horses are clear candidates for humane euthanasia.
If I buy a dog to do agility with and that dog gets an injury that precludes him from doing agility but he’s still a perfectly fine pet dog less the drive that made him an agility prospect, it’s ethical for me to PTS so I can afford another agility dog? I can’t rehome him bc he’s a drive -y dog so the number of homes that are suitable for him are very limited!
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For your agility analogy, again thank it depends. Is the dog happy just hanging out at your house, not being able to do much because of the injury? And are you still going to provide pain meds and whatever else to keep the dog comfortable even if it’s just hanging out? Also does it cost $700 up to $1,000 to keep the agility dog at home each month? So for me for some people this would be okay and for some people yes they would put the dog down.
I actually have a perfect example of this. I have a young border Collie that we had planned to do agility with. That has not happened because he just does not have the personality that makes me comfortable bringing him around crowds. So dreams down the drain but he is not lame or anything. He is kind of a problem child but he can go on walks he can go through the ball and do a lot of other fun tricks. And we can play with agility at home. Now if he had suffered an injury, that made it to where he couldn’t be very active at 3 years old? Yes I would put him down. Because he would be absolutely miserable and so would we trying to entertain a dog that couldn’t do a lot of physical activity that’s such a young age and so hyper.
I get what you’re saying people shouldn’t view these animals as just items to throw away. And I would guess that the majority at COTH don’t. I’ve put down two young horses that I didn’t consider pasture sound and neither did my vets. But there is people that just did not agree with me. My wobblers horse was sound at the time. And he looks shiny and had a great attitude. But the future was not going to be kind to him and I think a horse falling down is dangerous. I assure you I did not just put them down like they were pieces of trash that I was discarding. Lots of love care and thinking went into it.
I think there is some pastures sound horses that fine do that but I think people sometimes think these horses are more comfortable than they actually are imo… I think Sue Dyson’s work highlights just how many clues people miss about what their horses are saying. If I was going to retire a horse I certainly would make sure its close by so I could check on it and not rely on someone else to tell me how my horse is doing.
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In my analogy, the agility dog isn’t restricted to crate rest. He just can’t practice or compete in agility or other similar high impact sports. He’s perfectly happy playing in his yard, going on walks and being a pet. He doesn’t come with any costs over what the agility dog would have.
Which is really my point. Bar excessive maintenance, a retired horse costs the same as a competition horse in the grand scheme of things. The “work” we ask horses to do is not work but sport. This isn’t the olden days where we were dependent on horse powered plows to grow our food. The work we ask horses to do is an optional sport. I strongly question the ethics of putting down a safe, sane and comfortable (bar excessive maintenance) animal bc he isn’t sound for a luxury sport.
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True. But a “retired” dog costs… $100/month? Maybe more if they’re on some specialty food or you need a sitter/boarder regularly?
Retirement board here in NC starts at $500, plus farrier/supps/vet/etc. $700-$1000 a month is about right on for supporting a horse. And this is a huge reason why we have so many One Horse Ammys - plenty of people can support a dog or two, but how many can dump $2k a month into a couple horses?
I know this isn’t what you’re saying, but if the One Horse Amateur is an ethical grey area, the horse world just got a whole lot smaller.
ETA I’m also not supporting putting down a serviceably sound animal or one that just doesn’t fit the owner’s competition desires - I’m talking about the NQR and chronic lameness cases that can’t be ridden or driven AT ALL. One that WOULD be an ethics question if sold or given away - we all know how those stories tend to pan out.
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Derailing my own thread a bit BUT
Let’s say that we decide no one should buy a horse unless they are
- prepared to give up every goal and dream
- spend $12k/year+ maintaining said pet
- potentially buy a property just to support the pet if local boarding options cease to exist
- make long term financial and life decisions around the pet
Where does that leave the average horse owner? How many threads are out there about the death of grassroots horsemanship and ownership? Sure, leasing can be a great option, but how available are leases for the person who doesn’t want to show or cannot afford Full Training Board?
I feel as if I WANT to agree that one shouldn’t purchase any animal if they cannot support it no matter what - but I think that’s a short trip to making horses truly for only the rich. I also think plenty of people have been fine with two or three horses and are suddenly realizing they can only afford one; do we blame them if they choose to let the chronically NQR go?
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Lol. My dog costs quite a bit more than $100 per month between food, preventatives and regular medical care.
My point was that these dogs cost the same. Like the horses cost the same, wether you (g) get to ride him or not. I’m afraid that folks not being able to afford two horses doesn’t answer the ethical question of PTS a horse whose “only problem” is that he’s not sound enough for the sport the owner wants to play. I predict horse ownership will shrink even faster if animal rights advocates pick up that we’re culling horses bc they can’t jump big sticks.
I think we’ve already established that the horse that isn’t pasture sound without heroics is a clear candidate for humane euthanasia. And also what is pasture sound? This is what my vet and I really chewed on recently. If the horse is so unsound he can’t be ridden at all is he really pasture sound? Or is he also unsound (in pain) in the pasture but our feeble human eyes can only see when he’s being ridden or flexed by the vet?
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Well I’m not talking about a crate here. My border Collie would absolutely freaking hate life if he cannot chase a ball. Maybe I could deal with it if I could teach him to be a scent dog or something. But walks alone would not be enough physical activity for him if he had an injury that couldn’t stand real strenuous physical activity. I suppose we would have to try and sedate him most of his life if that was the case. But again who would I be doing that for? I’m very certain he would be unhappy. So let’s say he was able to do just enough to stay happy, well sure, I would glad they keep him for the rest of his life. But he also cost much much less than my horse. It’s just a sad reality.
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Well sure if your dog (or any dog or horse) has to be so restricted I think that falls into the excessive maintenance category?
Yes I agree that the real question is what is pasture sound.
Okay I see where you’re coming from. I don’t think anyone was talking about that. PLENTY of horses have some value doing other things than “jumping big sticks”. These are the ones you free lease out or find homes for with buybacks if possible.
THIS though. I am starting to think that the ones that LOSE IT in pain when sat on just to walkabout are probably not all that sound in pasture. Prey animals instinctively hide their pain until it becomes overwhelming, so one has to wonder.
I also think the other side of this is the swing towards overmanaging horses and expecting absolute perfection from a soundness standpoint. I walk a little funny and my back hurts if I do something dumb, but does that mean I need to see the doctor weekly or do tons of injections? No, it means I take an ibuprofen and should probably go hiking more.
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I guess I question that for the average young horse, that has to be retired, is it really ethical for them to not have maintenance at all just because they’re walking around a pasture? Like my example if a few posts above, the navicular horse. The lady considered him pasture sound and happy. She thought that because she wasn’t doing anything with him, he was eating, and occasionally he would play. But I saw a horse that often could barely walk and had trouble getting around the pasture on a lot of days. So much so that he would lie down too much. I think he at least needed special shoes that he was not getting, probably a pain medication and perhaps injections for me to even consider him pasture sound. But that’s not what his loving owner saw… She saw herself giving her horse a home for life where he would be nothing but a pet.
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I agree with @Lunabear1988 that quality of life can be very individual. I had a young horse who would start losing his mind after 2 weeks of sitting around, even with turnout. He was off a lot and required a lot of help to have a life where I wasn’t worried about his mental health if not his physical. Not having my own property, I thought a lot about how to best manage him. For sure not a rehoming candidate. Ultimately the decision to PTS was not optional and he was still young, but we’d both had a few years of poor quality of life even though he outwardly seemed healthy, at least pasture sound, and was an in your pocket, extroverted personality kind of guy. I learned a lot from his necropsy about his chronic issues, and if insurance isn’t a major factor (which it often is unfortunately), I think I would have a different perspective on how to judge a particular individual’s quality of life in the future.
I have another horse who is much more happy go lucky, laid back and go with the flow kind of guy. Also super social but super stoic. The same set of circumstances wouldn’t impact these two types of horses the same at all.
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Agree with it or not. The average horse owner gets into horse ownership cause they likely enjoy some part of the riding aspect, whether or not that is going to be competing. If someone truly just wanted a pet horse they would probably buy a mini or some pony that is cheaper to feed and maintain long term.
So if you take your average owner that likes horses and likes the sport who is happily paying $1200 a month for their hobby, but then something happens to the horse or a chronic injury is discovered and they are told hey you have to retire this horse and make sure its well cared for and provide maintenance for the next 15-20 years that $1200 that was a joy of the hobby very quickly turns into a financial burden. Not saying I agree with it, but I don’t fault anyone who thinks this way. Taking on a $200,000+ long term commitment when you get joy out of it is one thing, can be very emotionally draining when you don’t.
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To the first point. I think there are a lot of horses very happy doing little or no work that would physically fall apart in what we might call a regular program. Conversely, I think there are horses that fall apart in a regular program, the owner does a bunch of diagnostics, uncovers a plethora of problems and then since the horse has “bad x rays” nobody wants the horse for the low level job it might be good at. Everyone wants to buy a sound horse.
Big sticks are in the eye of the beholder. Anything over 6” in my eye lol.
So what do we do with the horse that is only suitable for a light flat riding home with an experienced rider? If there were a plethora of homes for these horses, we wouldn’t be having such a lively conversation.
There’s a lot of what ifs when we speak of horses. Everyone has stories. Has a history. Yadda yadda. Mine is that I think a lot of horses are kept in less than optimal conditions, worked inappropriately and then discarded when surprise! they go lame.
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I agree that dumping horses out on the back 40 and claiming that bc they still eat they must be fine isn’t acceptable either!
I’ve seen some similar and it make me queasy still.
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