KWPN someone simplify this for me!!!

[Dutch_Lovin_Dressage]

[QUOTE=JustMyStyle;6256136]
I was specifically told my foal would not be eligible as the mare was not KWPN approved. However after some digging it looks like maybe I was being told the mare could not be approved and the foal could not be inspected:

“Crosses with non-sporthorse breeds (Appaloosa, Arabian, Belgian or other Draft breeds, Morgan, AQHA, Paint, Pinto, Lippizan, Andalusian, etc.) or unregistered horses are eligible for Register B papers.”

Can someone elaborate on the difference between Register A and Register B foals? Other than the fact that Register B cannot be inspected. To me it seems like they don’t want to evaluate if a “half-bred” horse has improved the breed but they want to give them some kind of papers to make more money.

I’m not trying to be harsh or condisending/rude, I agree with closed books. I just have felt that one of the greatest things about warmbloods is they prove that each closed breed has something to bring to the table; and mixing blood (hot and cold) over many years can create amazing horses.[/QUOTE]

Did I miss the part where your mare is having a foal, or are you talking about a future breeding? What are her bloodlines? What is the stallions bloodlines?

I don’t know how other European studbooks (Hanoverian, Holsteiner, Oldenburg, German, Swedish, French, Sell Francais, etc) stand on letting Arabs in. Don’t think they allow it. I believe that Trakehner still might or did? In America - the melting pot - it is different. ISR, RSPI, American WB, etc. Some of these even let Quarter Horses or Paints in, and the resulting offspring are considered approved as breeding stock.

[Dutch_Lovin_Dressage]

[QUOTE=feather river;6256176]
quit asking for the general public to speculate on your specific issues. Call the NAWPN office. Someone earlier recommended this. It doesn’t matter what any of these other people say or think.[/QUOTE]

I think the OP did. If you follow registration table and rules are posted on the KWPN website then the answer appears to be no registration. But as CDE Driver pointed out, there is the DHH x Arab foal went to a Keuring who seems to go against the published guidlines. Go figure.

And that is why we’re discussing, that we can all get it right and be informed: Just in case we also want to cross a Dutch Horse with an Arabian. :yes:

[JustMyStyle]

Sorry, I was not clear. From my research other European studbooks allow outside mares into their auxiliary or secondary books but often offer foals full registration after inspection.

I have a Morgan mare in foal to a KWPN Stallion. He is also GOV, BWP, and ISR / GOV approved. My current plan is to have the mare inspected for the auxiliary BWP mare book and then have the foal inspected for full registration.

[feather_river]

[QUOTE=Dutch Lovin’ Dressage Rider;6256199]
I think the OP did. If you follow registration table and rules are posted on the KWPN website then the answer appears to be no registration. But as CDE Driver pointed out, there is the DHH x Arab foal went to a Keuring who seems to go against the published guidlines. Go figure.

And that is why we’re discussing, that we can all get it right and be informed: Just in case we also want to cross a Dutch Horse with an Arabian. :yes:[/QUOTE]

I understood all of that–but bottom line is it doesn’t matter whether you “get it right”. What matters is what the NAWPN office, or its mare/stallion committee person says. I am not a Dutch breeder–way too much mystical stuff about this level and that level, and all the peculiar breeding limitations about having this type of paper and that type of paper. That registry drives me nuts. It is not that hard with the others. Either they approve an Arab mare or they don’t. (frankly I don’t know why the mare owner would even be trying to get NAWPN papers–the Arabs have a half Arab registry, and that is where the offspring needs to be in my opinion… But that is an aside. the offspring will be a half Arab–it won’t be a Dutch warmblood–it won’t look like a Dutch warmblood.)

[feather_river]

[QUOTE=JustMyStyle;6256257]
Sorry, I was not clear. From my research other European studbooks allow outside mares into their auxiliary or secondary books but often offer foals full registration after inspection.

I have a Morgan mare in foal to a KWPN Stallion. He is also GOV, BWP, and ISR / GOV approved. My current plan is to have the mare inspected for the auxiliary BWP mare book and then have the foal inspected for full registration.[/QUOTE]
It is a half Morgan. It belongs in some kind of Morgan book. It doesn’t belong in the BWP genetic pool–they are not breeding Morgan horses. The BWP breeds for dressage, show jumping and eventing.
It is this kind of accomodation that these registries do here in the States that just starts these kinds of posts.:eek:

[JustMyStyle]

“It is a half Morgan. It belongs in some kind of Morgan book.” Well it’s going to be half Dutch too.

My mare can jump around a 4ft course nicely. She has excellent hocks, and great range in her shoulder. I don’t see how a foal with a GP Stallion and an athletic mare is not breeding for dressage, show jumping and eventing. Plus, isn’t that the point of inspections?

Feather River: I would wager a guess you have never been to an Arabian show or seen any Arabian Warmblood crosses. Half Arabian/Warmbloods don’t look like Arabians. At all. I doubt you even ask if one was half Arabian if you didn’t know. For example can you tell which one is half Arabian: this one? or this one?

[L_L]

[QUOTE=Dutch Lovin’ Dressage Rider;6255771]
Which part do you mean?[/QUOTE]

Justmystyle said

The KWPN book is a closed book. This means they no longer except outside blood. Both Sire and Dam must be registered/approved KWPN for the foal to be registered an/or approved.

My Morgan mare is in foal to an approved KWPN stallion and the foal is not eligible (I called and talked with them).

[L_L]

[QUOTE=JustMyStyle;6256136]
I will have to call again! I was specifically told my foal would not be eligible as the mare was not KWPN approved. However after some digging it looks like maybe I was being told the mare could not be approved and the foal could not be inspected: [/QUOTE]

Yes that is correct, your mare cannot attend the keurings and nor can the foal but the foal can still be registered KWPN Reg B :yes:

The advantage would be that if she were to produce you a filly that you were to retain progeny from her would be eligble for full VB (foal book) papers "IF* you breed her to an approved KWPN / Erkend stallion.

Re the query regarding the arab cross is it not possible that the Arab mare fell into the “improvement” category of registration?

[L_L]

[QUOTE=JustMyStyle;6256136]
Can someone elaborate on the difference between Register A and Register B foals? Other than the fact that Register B cannot be inspected. To me it seems like they don’t want to evaluate if a “half-bred” horse has improved the breed but they want to give them some kind of papers to make more money.

I’m not trying to be harsh or condisending/rude, I agree with closed books. I just have felt that one of the greatest things about warmbloods is they prove that each closed breed has something to bring to the table; and mixing blood (hot and cold) over many years can create amazing horses.[/QUOTE]

The Reg B is a safeguard, it allows entry of other breeds and unapproved bloodlines into the genepool, but protects the stud book if you like from these bloodlines becoming readily available and causing any possible negative impact that could come about from throwback generations.

The Reg B animal cannot become an approved breeding stallion and the Reg B mare must be bred to an approved stallion ensuring that the quality of the next generation is maintained… The next generation then bred to another approved stalllion then assures that you have a dilution of the genetics that were first introduced.

Reg A is for animals sired by non approved / erkend stallions but licencesed by other studbooks, owners of Reg A animals must submit x-rays in order to be promoted to Studbook at age three, if the x-rays are not good they remain in Reg A. This again is a safeguard because the KWPN wish to maintain that stallions x-rays are disclosed and many of the German Stud Books don’t. So mares x-rays must be submitted to ensure that the outside stallions used are not brining in undesirable hereditary traits.

Hope this helps.

[L_L]

[QUOTE=Dutch Lovin’ Dressage Rider;6256175]
Register A is a foal who meets the KWPN registering requirements, and is eligible for Keuring:

1. KWPN approved or Erkend stallion x KWPN or Erkend mare.

Register B foals do not typically meet the KWPN breed guidelines and standards (KWPN is known for its high quality horses, so it has high standards) for various reasons. They are not eligible for Keuring. Register B is what replaced Certificate of Pedigree with KWPN. Here are just some of the various situations that can result in Reg B papers:

1. KWPN unapproved stallion (still has to be stallion activated $$ for foal to be registered) x KWPN mare. (stallion doesn’t meet breed requirements because not approved)

2. KWPN stallion who WAS approved, but is now on the Watch List x KWPN mare. (stallion doesn’t meet breed requirements because is not good enough to maintain approval).

3. KWPN approved stallion x unregistered mare.

4. KWPN approved stallion x non sporthorse mare.[/QUOTE]

Not forgetting a KWPN mare bred to ANY stallion non erkend licensed of any breed…

[JustMyStyle]

Thank you L&L that was very informative!!

[Dutch_Lovin_Dressage]

[QUOTE=Dutch Lovin’ Dressage Rider;6251737]

So IF she somehow did receive Reg B, and she was bred to KWPN approved stallion, the resulting offspring could be eligible for inspection or Keuring only if it was female.

Good luck![/QUOTE]

As I posted on Page One. :yes:

[Dutch_Lovin_Dressage]

@L&L;6257178

The advantage would be that if she were to produce you a filly that you were to retain progeny from her would be eligble for full VB (foal book) papers "IF* you breed her to an approved KWPN / Erkend stallion.

Page One.

Good News is: Reg B when riding age can still go to a Keuring to do the Young Horse Classes - which are open to ALL KWPN horses including Reg B - like DG Bar Cup for Dressage 3, 4, and 5 yr olds, or ISF Cup for Jumpers 4, 5, and 6 yr olds. http://kwpn-na.org/keuring/classes.php

Unfortunately Reg B cannot to the IBOP.

[L_L]

Originally Posted by Dutch Lovin’ Dressage Rider

So IF she somehow did receive Reg B, and she was bred to KWPN approved stallion, the resulting offspring could be eligible for inspection or Keuring only if it was female.

mmm not quite, If the Morgan mare produced a filly that was KWPN reg B the progeny from that filly male or female if sired by a KWPN approved/Erkend stallion would be eligble for VB papers and could attend the keurings regardless of gendre not only if it were female

@ Justmystyle But in light of the latter, understand that her daughter will always be Reg B and it would only be the foal that was inspected should you attend the keurings

I think planning ahead now is a good thing for you, I am not familiar with the regulations of other stud books but would suspect that full papers for a colt with another US registry would be the route I would go, so if the other stud books will accept your mare and the foal and grant full papers for a colt this is the route I would go.

However if the mare produced a filly that I liked enough to want to retain her for future breeding then I would look into the possibilities of where the other registries would place my filly within the stud book if I were to register KWPN Reg B as ideally I would be aiming for the next generation of VB papers for her daughters with the KWPN.

Even if the filly were to be offered for sale you would be in a position to sell her with the knowledge that she would be eligble for producing KWPN VB foals in the future.

Others can advise as to where a KWPN Reg B filly sired by a KWPN approved stallion would be placed if presented ISR or Gov etc…

[feather_river]

[QUOTE=JustMyStyle;6257081]
“It is a half Morgan. It belongs in some kind of Morgan book.” Well it’s going to be half Dutch too.

My mare can jump around a 4ft course nicely. She has excellent hocks, and great range in her shoulder. I don’t see how a foal with a GP Stallion and an athletic mare is not breeding for dressage, show jumping and eventing. Plus, isn’t that the point of inspections?

Feather River: I would wager a guess you have never been to an Arabian show or seen any Arabian Warmblood crosses. Half Arabian/Warmbloods don’t look like Arabians. At all. I doubt you even ask if one was half Arabian if you didn’t know. For example can you tell which one is half Arabian: this one? or this one?[/QUOTE]

who cares–take the Morgans and Arabs (full, or some part) to the Morgan and Arab shows where they can be competitive. And if you love your Morgan mare so much you should be proud of the Morgan breed. Why didn’t you breed it to another Morgan???

[Dutch_Lovin_Dressage]

[QUOTE=feather river;6259877]
who cares–take the Morgans and Arabs (full, or some part) to the Morgan and Arab shows where they can be competitive. And if you love your Morgan mare so much you should be proud of the Morgan breed. Why didn’t you breed it to another Morgan???[/QUOTE]

Rude. Narrow minded. TROLL! We were having a constructive, open minded, and informative discussion here, until you came along. This is the Sport Horse Breeding Form. Arabians and Morgans are Sport Horses. We have already discussed the registration possibilities of these crosses.

Breeding is personal. It is about capturing or diminishing certain traights or charcteristics, and seeking to produce an improved individual. This is achieved by either crossing similar types or out crossing. Therefore out crossing is not indicative that one does not love or is not proud of their mare. Or stallion!

Please take your trolliness elsewhere.

[Dutch_Lovin_Dressage]

[QUOTE=L&L;6258466]
mmm not quite, If the Morgan mare produced a filly that was KWPN reg B the progeny from that filly male or female if sired by a KWPN approved/Erkend stallion would be eligble for VB papers and could attend the keurings regardless of gendre not only if it were female :)[/QUOTE]

Good catch! :winkgrin: I appreciate the correction.

Fillies and colts could be inspected. A filly would be inspected as breeding stock, but a colt could not be inspected as approved breeding stock.

[SamWerner]

[QUOTE=feather river;6259877]
who cares–take the Morgans and Arabs (full, or some part) to the Morgan and Arab shows where they can be competitive. And if you love your Morgan mare so much you should be proud of the Morgan breed. Why didn’t you breed it to another Morgan???[/QUOTE]

You are so right. My half arab/dutch boy that was Foal of Distinction at his GOV inspection and has the highest score out of ANY SINGLE HORSE at the Young Horse Show series (8.85) should have never been bred. He obviously is a piece of crap. I wonder why the European judges at the last show I was at said if I could repeat the cross I need to right away…they must have been kidding with me.

:D:D:D:D:D

[L_L]

[QUOTE=Dutch Lovin’ Dressage Rider;6260012]
Good catch! :winkgrin: I appreciate the correction.

Fillies and colts could be inspected. A filly would be inspected as breeding stock, but a colt could not be inspected as approved breeding stock.[/QUOTE]

Your turn to help me out now DLDR, how many generations are required of approved breeding with the KWPN before a colt can be eligble for stallion selection? TIA

[JustMyStyle]

Feather River - Because I don’t like the direction of where Morgan horse breeding is going. Which is towards long necked, spindle legged saddlebreds. In fact, though you clearly aren’t interested, there has just been a release by the AMHA for judges to more clearly follow the standard of the ideal Morgan horse in light of the breed going so far from the standard.

I’m not looking to set up a breeding operation to “save” the Morgan. I finally reached a point a could breed a horse for myself. Furthermore I had a chance to breed to an exceptional stallion.

“Breeding is personal. It is about capturing or diminishing certain traights or charcteristics, and seeking to produce an improved individual. This is achieved by either crossing similar types or out crossing. Therefore out crossing is not indicative that one does not love or is not proud of their mare. Or stallion!” EXACTLY!!!

And I noticed you couldn’t seem to tell which horse I pictured was half Arab. So much for the Arab/Warmblood crosses all looking like Arabs.