Lame horses winning at shows

[QUOTE=Oranges2012;8692816]

I don’t agree about minding business, although no one (have to say including myself) brought this forward that this particular show. But if no one speaks up, nothing will change. [/QUOTE]

So who do you want to speak up at the time where it matters? Not on a forum after the fact where it is just someone saying what they think they saw, but at the horse show where it is said that everyone saw the lame horse?
Clearly you do not think it should be you…so who?

I doubt judges are intentionally ignoring lameness.

Considering there was a very obvious and very loudly spectated event not too far from recent memory in which a clearly lame horse was not rung from a top FEI event… well, there was even a thread about it on COTH. :rolleyes:

It does happen. It happens in every discipline. When it happens, it should be discussed and investigated. If the OP really had a complaint, next time go to the officials and ask, or talk to them about it. Which you should have done before coming here – however, the refusal to acknowledge this is an issue in dressage (or in any discipline) from other posters is kind of baffling.

Some people genuinely CANNOT see lamenesses. Or detect them. This isn’t new.

OP I have shared similar experiences; so, you are not alone nor is your description unique or rare. I will concede that donetko makes a very valid point. It is difficult to be sure from the vantage point and in the time frame a judge has whether a horse is truly lame or not and why. Rein lame is another reality and I’ve seen it often. Lameness exams are often long and arduous so that the horse’s way of going can be seen from all vantage points and in a variety of circumstances. A dressage test is not a lameness exam.

Still having said that I’ve watched enough horses in the area at shows, over a period of time, sometimes over a transition of levels and with multiple riders including those from the same training program, which has given me an opportunity to develop a pretty decent opinion as to which ones are most likely lame and not due to transitory rider interference. Over time even rein lame can develop into a true clinical problem for the horse that exists without the rider. It’s another reason why the onus is on the rider to learn how to ride correctly and in proper balance.

I think the rider and trainer are responsible for the well-being of the horse. If a judge sees a situation which is clear, they too should be an advocate of the horse if the rider and/or trainer fail to make that decision; but, I don’t believe making that decision is easy from the box. The fact of the matter is that gait irregularities are real and their impact on a test will vary from judge to judge, ride to ride and test to test.

While I’ve had the opportunity to play a vet on t.v., I am also one in real life and am a certified expert investigator in animal abuse and cruelty. While I have a pretty good understanding and a strong opinion as to the soundness of horses when I see them go, lameness in the show ring is more often than not a gray area. If it’s not the clear cut, “horse pulls up three-legged lame, in extreme discomfort”, then you have to ask was the ‘subclinical’ lameness pervasive enough to affect the essence of the performance? The score will often reflect ‘that’. The performance of athletes, especially older ones carries a greater likelihood that wear and tear is present. Hopefully they are servicieably sound and a bauble here or there is simply a reflection of a rider imbalance, a change in footing or something else transitory. I look at the overall musculature of the horse, its demeanor, its conditioning and many other aspects that can give an indication of what is likely going on when I’m making my opinion…I do not in any way expect a judge to do that…because I’m often making that call having watched the horse in warm-up, the test and often as it’s walking out when everyone has ‘relaxed’. It’s not really fair to expect a judge to be able to do the same.

I’d like to note also that the original poster indicated they had seen this at CDIs. Horses have to pass the jog at CDIs. Perhaps knowing that vets have already passed the horse as sound at the jog, it takes a more of a significant lameness for the judge to want to excuse them.

GSeveral years ago, at my horse’s first show after I bought him, he did very well in his classes on Saturday and his first class on Sunday.

A BNT/BNR (different discipline) moved in next to us with his herd of horses and the grooms insisted on keeping the upper doors open. A horse stuck his head out of his stall and around and INTO my horse’s stall (horizontal bars). My horse is very territorial and tried to climb the wall between the stalls.

He went into his fourth class (second of the day) with the trainer with minimal warm up and I was taking photos. About halfway through the class he CHANGED. He looked very off to me - he’s a metronome and never lame or head bobbing (knocking hard on wood right now). I was cringing.

At the end of the test, the judge actually came out into the ring to talk to my trainer about it. It was not constant but something definitely happened during the test.

Got him home, vet out/xrays/etc., prob bruised from his stall climbing, month off, good as new.

I was happy the judge came out. Didn’t change our plan (still would have called vet), but I thought it was great that she cared and called horse and rider out on it. Maybe it wasn’t enough to ring him out, but she cared. She scored him appropriately. Trainer felt it too and they had a nice discussion. I can’t remember exactly, but I believe she had also judged one of the othe three tests he did that weekend so had seen him not lame and scoring in the high 60s.

ETA: I think it’s fine to thank the good judges…it was Kem Barbosa.

Low level test, BTW.

A friend of mine is an FEI scribe. Her assignments over the years have included CDIs in Wellington.

I once asked her what usually happened if a horse was slightly and occasionally “irregular” – i.e., was it cause for elimination, or what?

She said words to the effect of “Most judges would just comment “occ. irregular” on the test, and would mark the horse down for it to one degree or another. But unless it is an obvious, marked unsoundness/lameness, they will let it go.”

This is really difficult though. I was at a rated show earlier in the year and there was a horse in the lorry park that had spur wounds after its test. It was a dark bay horse, they were still very visible. The show didn’t have stewards, so it would have meant me (still technically a junior rider) marching up to the judge and suggesting that they missed blood when judging a test. And you know what the owner would say - ‘oh, it’s not spur wounds, it caught itself while tied to the lorry’ etc etc. I’m ashamed to say I started second guessing myself and chickened out.

I genuinely regret not reporting it - but when you’re actually in that situation, and everyone else is blithely ignoring the problem, it’s incredibly hard to be the one to speak out. I like to think next time I will do the right thing.

[QUOTE=Pipkin;8693758]

I genuinely regret not reporting it - but when you’re actually in that situation, and everyone else is blithely ignoring the problem, it’s incredibly hard to be the one to speak out. I like to think next time I will do the right thing.[/QUOTE]
We’ve all been there, and when you are younger it can certainly be hard to find your voice.

Ask your trainer for some tips. Next time, you will do the right thing. :slight_smile:

Well, touchy subject. A friend with whom I boarded had a big WB that - to my eyes - was pretty much “off” most of the time from age 9 on.

I usually braided her horse for shows and she approached me about braiding him for a show. This was on a Saturday, a week before the show. She never wanted to hear that anything was not right with the horse, so when I saw her riding the next Tuesday, I said only, “Does he feel a little uneven to you?” She admitted that he did, said she’d give him a little bute. On Friday before the show, I asked her how he was and if she still needed a braiding job. She said he was fine, so Saturday afternoon, I braided him. She pretty consistently placed at shows - big, flashy horse, obviously warmblood though not an exceptional mover. She went to the show on Sunday, and a judge finally had the cojones to ring her out for unsoundness.

She then did have the vet seen by a vet and the diagnosis was basically “road founder.” (This was a big horse that had been pounding along on his forehand for a looong time). After many months of gradual corrective shoeing, he was pretty much sound, but I don’t think she ever showed him again. He died a few years later from something totally unrelated. Sad.

[QUOTE=MysticOakRanch;8693175]
As usual, we SHOULD look to the rule book - minor or intermittent lameness is not a cause for elimination!

DR 122, 6. Lameness. In the case of marked lameness the judge or President of the Jury informs the competitor that he is eliminated.

Marked - significant, blatant, pervasive lameness - and it is a judge’s decision. So if they see minor irregularity even throughout the test, it is not a cause for elimination. Intermittent irregularity is also not a cause for elimination. It is a reason to mark down individual movements as well as the collective gait score. Can a horse still win? Sure, if he still gets higher scores then the others in the class.

Lameness is any irregularity of the gait - and is not always a result of pain. It can be rider caused, tension, biomechanical issue within the horse (for example, old scar tissue, no longer painful, but restricting movement, VERY common in horses and people), etc.[/QUOTE]

This.

I have scribed for many judges, and unless it’s as clear as MOR stated they can’t ring them out… but they get very grumpy if they think a horse isn’t right and they can’t ring them out. This is different from things like uneven in a lengthening/medium/extended gait which seems to be at least as commonly pushing more than that specific horse is ready for as it is an indicator of a problem where a vet should be involved.

I’ve only seen it once and they didn’t get rung out. Horse started up OK but right after coming down centerline the slight head bobbing lame started. Every step. I said to my friend, who noticed as well “Oh no, poor girl is going to get rung out because her horse is lame.” She didn’t. I kept watching. Does she not know something happened to her horse? I kept waiting for the judge to ring her and tell her (she was young and quite possibly unaware). The people next to me in passing whispered to each other wondering why someone wasn’t stopping this test. Horse was getting worse and worse. Now pretty dramatically head bobbing and uncomfortable. Never got rung out. I kept looking at the judge just hoping she would ring that bell but no such luck. Someone did approach the girl right after her class and let her know in case she hadn’t noticed…and she hadn’t. She thanked the people and scratched for the day. No idea why that bell didn’t ring. It wasn’t a “Hmmm…maybe he’s just off balance or took a funny step.” This horse was lame.

I’ve seen horses eliminated for lameness many times.

No one remembers Leslie Morse with Kingston in Las Vegas? I believe it was the World Cup. Talk about a high profile event!

I think judges do the best they can. If you have a really well trained horse, with a very good rider and the horse takes a few irregular steps, it could absolutely beat another horse who isn’t as well trained or well ridden.

When I was younger I used to think it was criminal to work a horse when it was a bit NQR. Now that I’m older (and realize I’m NQR most of the time myself), I realize that I feel much better once I’m moving.

Reasonable, correct work is probably better for a horse with some arthritis than letting it sit in a paddock. Mostly horses are really happy to have a job.

Of course I don’t think you should be heavily competing a horse with a serious soundness issue. But there is a whole big fat grey area between completely sound and completely unsound.

Yes. I mentioned it.

[QUOTE=Keg-A-Bacchus;8697505]
I’ve only seen it once and they didn’t get rung out. Horse started up OK but right after coming down centerline the slight head bobbing lame started. Every step. I said to my friend, who noticed as well “Oh no, poor girl is going to get rung out because her horse is lame.” She didn’t. I kept watching. Does she not know something happened to her horse? I kept waiting for the judge to ring her and tell her (she was young and quite possibly unaware). The people next to me in passing whispered to each other wondering why someone wasn’t stopping this test. Horse was getting worse and worse. Now pretty dramatically head bobbing and uncomfortable. Never got rung out. I kept looking at the judge just hoping she would ring that bell but no such luck. Someone did approach the girl right after her class and let her know in case she hadn’t noticed…and she hadn’t. She thanked the people and scratched for the day. No idea why that bell didn’t ring. It wasn’t a “Hmmm…maybe he’s just off balance or took a funny step.” This horse was lame.[/QUOTE]

This exact thing happened to me. Horse was fine going around the arena, and up centerline into the halt. After that, dead lame! For the whole test, I kept waiting for the judge to ring us out, but nothing happened. I would even twist around to look at the judge during the circles as if I could catch her eye to point out that my horse was visibly limping. I was new to dressage showing then, so didn’t know I could ask to be excused, or I would have done so. I felt so bad for my horse.

Got a 47 on that test, with the comment, “unlevel”. YA THINK???!!!

[QUOTE=beowulf;8693196]

Some people genuinely CANNOT see lamenesses. Or detect them. This isn’t new.[/QUOTE]

This is so true. And most people have no idea how to detect lameness before it gets to the limping (head bobbing) stage. By the time the horse is limping, even a little bit, it should be a serious concern.

The amount of times that I’ve witnessed lame horses allowed and encouraged to compete far outweighs the amount of times I’ve witnessed lame horses get dismissed (which is almost never).

The amount of times I’ve encountered riders who will just bute up and ride their lame horse without a second thought is depressingly common.

I often find myself questioning what happened to welfare within our sport. Riders and trainers will claim the horse as our top priority, but when faced with the tough decisions right in front of them, it’s staggering how many will just kick him on and hope no one sees.

Not to excuse horses being competed lame, but I can see several reasons why a judge might either miss this, or else decide to err on the side of doing nothing.

First, it is true that the angle you view the horse from affects how well you can see the lameness. If you are watching the horse from the side you see things you can’t if you are watching the horse head on from the judge’s booth (other posters have said this too).

Second, the patterns move really fast (as people note in the thread on new scoring system) and you might think you saw something but not be able to concentrate on it.

I’m thinking about diagnosing a horse that is subtly “off,” how we trot it up and down, consult our coaches and experienced friends, poke and prod; we’d probably spend far longer than the length of one dressage test observing, before we’d call the vet in.

Third, if the judge was overly pro-active and rang out every horse that seemed off in some way, and some of them were fine, there would be a big uproar.

Fourth, many horses do have a hitch in their gait in some way, or are being ridden in a way that makes them seem lame.

And, fifth, not everybody, rider or judge or trainer, can see the more subtle forms of lameness, or the transient ones, or indeed sometimes the more obvious ones.

I don’t have a perfect eye by any means, but I’ve spent some time hanging out with my coach/farrier who has a good eye, and I’ve had the advantage of being able to watch horses that are going perfectly sound, enough to know what it looks like when all four legs are moving correctly for that horse. And I’ve been able to watch other horses that looked NQR to me a few years back, develop progressive injuries or diseases that, in hindsight, justified what I thought I saw back then. On the other hand, I still miss some subtle signs, or am not sure that I’m seeing what I think I am, and absolutely would never IRL volunteer the opinion that a horse was off, if I wasn’t asked point blank for it (I’m braver on-line :)).

Anyhow, I have a semi-informed eye, and so it is interesting to see how many people notice less than I do. I have seen people miss head-bobbing lame (transient, in competition; confirmed, in pleasure riding), not just crocked stifles or hocks, which can be so common as to seem normal.

And the thing is, if the person you are talking to can’t see what you see, then you come off as imagining things. I have a good friend who shares my riding philosophy, but she is totally fixated on the head and neck. She will criticize horses being “behind the vertical,” or praise them for having a more open pole, but she never, ever looks at the hind end. When I say that a particular horse was btv, but was moving correctly overall, or a horse had an open pole, but was still going short behnd and on the forehand, she hasn’t seen this, can’t see this, and doesn’t believe me. It’s like trying to describe colours to a colour-blind man. Or talking about the colours of someone’s aura.

In my ideal world, horses wouldn’t compete lame or even “off,” and they also wouldn’t be schooled lame or off, and everyone would be primed to see the least constriction of gait, and ready to be pro-active to solve it. So I’m not trying to excuse horses being competed lame, just to say that it may be harder to catch, and harder to feel justified in ringing out a rider, for the judge.

I am going to repeat my earlier post because this entire page of posts goes on ignoring the rule book. The judge does NOT eliminate a horse that is subtly lame, that is slightly unlevel, that has occasional bobbles, that is “NQR”, that has minor lameness, unevenness, whatever. The Rulebook says elimination is for MARKED lameness. That means something SIGNIFICANT, PERVASIVE. The judges see these minor things, they mark the movement down, but they do not eliminate unless the horse is markedly lame.

If you feel your horse is NQR, it is NOT the judge’s responsibility to ring you out! You always have the option of asking to be dismissed - I have NEVER seen a judge refuse such a request.

So many people complain about judges not conforming to the rules - and there are still complaints when they conform to the rules.

[QUOTE=MysticOakRanch;8698470]
I am going to repeat my earlier post because this entire page of posts goes on ignoring the rule book. The judge does NOT eliminate a horse that is subtly lame, that is slightly unlevel, that has occasional bobbles, that is “NQR”, that has minor lameness, unevenness, whatever. The Rulebook says elimination is for MARKED lameness. That means something SIGNIFICANT, PERVASIVE. The judges see these minor things, they mark the movement down, but they do not eliminate unless the horse is markedly lame.

If you feel your horse is NQR, it is NOT the judge’s responsibility to ring you out! You always have the option of asking to be dismissed - I have NEVER seen a judge refuse such a request.

So many people complain about judges not conforming to the rules - and there are still complaints when they conform to the rules.[/QUOTE]

(Politely raising hand and saying that I’m totally fine with what the judge did with my horse in the example I gave and think it was very appropriate based on the rules - I don’t know if she could have rung him out, and I think she was totally appropriate in scoring him and then coming out to talk to the rider.

Just so you know I wasn’t complaining ;). )

Thank you to those here who have brought more light to a difficult and touchy topic. That kind of dialogue was what I was hoping for when I posted. Riders responsibility to horse’s soundness: of course! And I still also think: judges should say something more often ( on test sheets or to rider directly, and even if they are not ‘sure’ but suspect something is off ) score appropriately ( and not give high scores when it is NQR, frequently uneven or more etc ) or ring out when horse seen horse is clearly lame.

[QUOTE=Oranges2012;8699085]
Thank you to those here who have brought more light to a difficult and touchy topic. That kind of dialogue was what I was hoping for when I posted. Riders responsibility to horse’s soundness: of course! And I still also think: judges should say something more often ( on test sheets or to rider directly, and even if they are not ‘sure’ but suspect something is off ) score appropriately ( and not give high scores when it is NQR, frequently uneven or more etc ) or ring out when horse seen horse is clearly lame.[/QUOTE]

They do.

Maybe not the way you like/want, but they certainly do.

If the rider on the “lame” horse win, it’s because it had an overall better ride than the others.