What do you all think when a lame or at best sub-clinical ( irregular steps, etc) horse gets good scores at shows? Have seen this from lower levels to GP. Recently a PSG horse who had irregular and often lame ( head bobbing, at times very obvious, other times subtle but clear) in all trot work got over 70% at good size show. Horse otherwise was steady looking but many spectators could see the problem from the talk around the show. Rider is known and doing well at shows and CDIs. Why don’t judges ring out these people? If trainers think they can get away with it, or don’t care, it will not stop. Have seen it often but especially disappointng to see at FEI.
[QUOTE=Oranges2012;8692694]
What do you all think when a lame or at best sub-clinical ( irregular steps, etc) horse gets good scores at shows? Have seen this often, from lower levels to GP. Recently a PSG horse who had irregular and often lame ( head bobbing for a few steps) in all trot work got over 70% at good size show. Horse otherwise was steady looking but many spectators could see the problem from the talk around the show. Rider is known and doing well at shows and CDIs. Why don’t judges ring out these people? If trainers think they can get away with it, or don’t care, it will not stop. Have seen it often but especially disappointng to see at FEI.[/QUOTE]
Lots of assumptions here. I try to mind my own business. If you really want to know, ask the judge.
Lameness is a grey area…
Do you really think they would spend $$$ to possibly get DQd for lameness? I am not sure this is as deliberate as you make it out to be.
It’s sad, and I’m not discounting the need to make changes. However, sometimes footing at shows isn’t the best (sometimes) and horses might react to this for a few steps.
dont confuse over-reaction to a half halt for lame
I was at a show recently (three rings going) and an S judge eliminsted a horse for being lame and also told the rider that the draft cross was dangerously obese and not really suitable for dressage.
I didn’t see the ride but did think the horse was way overweight.
[QUOTE=Oranges2012;8692694]
What do you all think when a lame or at best sub-clinical ( irregular steps, etc) horse gets good scores at shows? Have seen this often, from lower levels to GP. Recently a PSG horse who had irregular and often lame ( head bobbing for a few steps) in all trot work got over 70% at good size show. Horse otherwise was steady looking but many spectators could see the problem from the talk around the show. Rider is known and doing well at shows and CDIs. Why don’t judges ring out these people? If trainers think they can get away with it, or don’t care, it will not stop. Have seen it often but especially disappointng to see at FEI.[/QUOTE]
Are you a vet? Are you a judge? Were spectators qualified to judge a real lameness?
Sounds like sour grapes to me.
[QUOTE=Oranges2012;8692694]
Why don’t judges ring out these people? If trainers think they can get away with it, or don’t care, it will not stop. Have seen it often but especially disappointng to see at FEI.[/QUOTE]
Especially with the biggest names like Totilas. 
Horse this particular time had shown same lameness, re-occurring during tests at different shows, irregular trot including head bobbing; not a footing issue. Don’t think it’s a grey area when professionals, AAs and even a vet weighed in when viewing, so am not the only one having seen it.
Some riders, who have a horse that is their ‘big’ or main horse will indeed spend $ if no one calls them out and especially if they keep winning.
I don’t agree about minding business, although no one (have to say including myself) brought this forward that this particular show. But if no one speaks up, nothing will change. Blood on tongue and spurs, which can be accidental, are called out, why not this. Just how lame does a horse have to be? This is on the judges, as I see it. And yes, Totilas is the perfect example of how far this can go.
Thankfully this does not happen frequently, but when it does, from large venue to small, is really a pity for the sport.
Some horses get like that when nervous or tense–they look lame or irregular. Some horses are lame and the rider is covering it. Some horses are good old troupers that may not be the most “sound,”" but are perfectly happy and not in pain and it’s not a bad thing.
As a judge, it’s VERY hard to make that assumption and mess someone up. Most judges don’t want to assume it is a lameness. On the other side of it, there are some issues with not wanting to eliminate big name people.
An obviously lame horse won the Olympics, Ulla Salzberger and Rusty. Poor Leslie Morse got one or two moves in and was riung out with Kingston at the World Cup.
You just never know.
Have seen this too. But irregularity from tension is different than clearly lame. Older and creaky, ok, but not lame.
Just would like to see judges step up more, most especially when judging horses at FEI- with riders, trainers who should know better. It just makes the sport look bad.
Rein lame will get scored down. Truly, physically lame will be excused.
[QUOTE=alibi_18;8692782]
Are you a vet? Are you a judge? Were spectators qualified to judge a real lameness?
Sounds like sour grapes to me.[/QUOTE]
Head bobbing and irregular steps through trot work is obvious enough. Don’t need to be a vet for that. As I said, it was not just myself that saw this, spectators educated and otherwise saw this.
I wish it was sour grapes! That would be better for the horse.
[QUOTE=Oranges2012;8692694]
What do you all think when a lame or at best sub-clinical ( irregular steps, etc) horse gets good scores at shows? … Have seen this often, from lower levels to GP… Have seen it often but especially disappointng to see at FEI.[/QUOTE]
It went from happening “often” at 5:54 pm to “thankfully does not happen frequently” by 7:35.
It does make for a good story, though. 
[QUOTE=Silverbridge;8692875]
It went from happening “often” at 5:54 pm to “thankfully does not happen frequently” by 7:35.
It does make for a good story, though. ;)[/QUOTE]
I don’t understand why this post seems to offend some? Sorry if I don’t articulate this exactly right … yes, I have seen it often. I’m not young, have been around quite a few years. This issue does happen and more often at lower levels. That I can forgive, in some ways; this work doesn’t demand a lot from the horse. Not to say is okay but more understandable. But for FEI horses, I have not seen it as ‘frequently’ but IMO is less forgivable. As Mardi said, Totilas is a good example at the highest extreme. Maybe people just don’t want to see their heroes criticized. But it’s not good for sport or horses. Judges should say something more often or score appropriately or ring out. I’ll stick to that.
OP - have you actually sat at C? The number of steps of trot where lameness can be evaluated is limited - especially if it is a mild lameness. For example, nothing can be seen on the center line unless the horse is literally limping. Then, the horse may take an off step in the turn at C and the judge may think ‘is it off?’, then a diagonal happens and unless the horse is markedly off in many steps the judge is still thinking ‘rhythm? contact or mechanical?’ then a canter happens and all is forgiven until the next trot which is in the other direction and may be fine.
Most judges think ‘don’t be off, don’t be off’ when we see a rhythm problem. Unless it is pervasive, we will comment on it but won’t eliminate because of it. If we think the horse is in trouble, of course we ring it out but that is rarely the case.
Try sitting at C and see what YOU see
I was scribing for a friend in the ‘L’ program where we had 12 or so practice judges and an ‘S’ judge watching the same tests. One horse spooked and stumbled badly, then was head bobbing lame at the trot for 3 more movements before the canter. About a third of the practice judges saw it and agreed with me that the horse was lame, the others did not see it and the ‘S’ judge did not.
I think they were looking at other things in the gaits/straightness, something, and truly did not see it.
As a rider I once had the experience of my horse slipping her foot on a soft patch of the base, as we did our trot lengthening (1st level) she was head bobbing lame. I withdrew - the judge had not seen it from C but my trainer had from the side. In this case it was a temporary issue and no harm done but at the time how can you tell if you just blew a suspensory or not?
I fault the riders more than anyone - they should know, not just in front of others, if the horse is ‘off’.
During horse shopping, we tried a horse who was lame. His feet were much too long and this was given as the reason - after all, clearly he was sound just the weekend before because he had scores in the low 70% (at Training) from a rated show. He had a great personality and was quite pretty, so we took him on a month’s free trial (post-farriery) but returned him after 2 weeks as he never came sound. Luckily the trainer dropped him off, picked him up, etc. so the only money we were out was the two pairs of bell boots he destroyed in turnout (part of the lameness?). She took him to another show very soon after and he scored well again. We took the word of the trainer that he was sound the weekend before we tried him because he scored well at a rated show, but perhaps the judge was just looking beyond his obvious lameness.
I’m still guessing it was rein lameness and the OP just doesn’t know the difference.
[QUOTE=Oranges2012;8692694]
What do you all think when a lame or at best sub-clinical ( irregular steps, etc) horse gets good scores at shows? Have seen this from lower levels to GP. Recently a PSG horse who had irregular and often lame ( head bobbing, at times very obvious, other times subtle but clear) in all trot work got over 70% at good size show. Horse otherwise was steady looking but many spectators could see the problem from the talk around the show. Rider is known and doing well at shows and CDIs. Why don’t judges ring out these people? If trainers think they can get away with it, or don’t care, it will not stop. Have seen it often but especially disappointng to see at FEI.[/QUOTE]
Speak to the TD on the day.
As usual, we SHOULD look to the rule book - minor or intermittent lameness is not a cause for elimination!
DR 122, 6. Lameness. In the case of marked lameness the judge or President of the Jury informs the competitor that he is eliminated.
Marked - significant, blatant, pervasive lameness - and it is a judge’s decision. So if they see minor irregularity even throughout the test, it is not a cause for elimination. Intermittent irregularity is also not a cause for elimination. It is a reason to mark down individual movements as well as the collective gait score. Can a horse still win? Sure, if he still gets higher scores then the others in the class.
Lameness is any irregularity of the gait - and is not always a result of pain. It can be rider caused, tension, biomechanical issue within the horse (for example, old scar tissue, no longer painful, but restricting movement, VERY common in horses and people), etc.
What do you all think when a lame or at best sub-clinical ( irregular steps, etc) horse gets good scores at shows? Have seen this from lower levels to GP. Recently a PSG horse who had irregular and often lame ( head bobbing, at times very obvious, other times subtle but clear) in all trot work got over 70% at good size show. Horse otherwise was steady looking but many spectators could see the problem from the talk around the show. Rider is known and doing well at shows and CDIs. Why don’t judges ring out these people? If trainers think they can get away with it, or don’t care, it will not stop. Have seen it often but especially disappointng to see at FEI.
“at best subclinical”-
if ‘subclinical’- could be rein lameness or stepped on a rock. WhaT IS A judge to do about intermittent 'subclinical ’ lameness- your words. The horse may not be lame
It is not clear from your post if you actually witnessed this alleged atrocity or if you are just repeating gossip -since you said this:
“many spectators could see the problem from the talk around the show.”
and After people ask you if you are a vet - suddenly you pull a vet out of your pocket.
You may be right or you may be wrong- but that is not at all clear from your posts
