Lameness DX, where to next?

[Training_Cupid]

Horse is 12 year old gelding, been NQR since end of last year. I’ve owned him 12 years during which time he’s been in regular light work (low level dressage with light showing; trail rides; occasional jumping rarely over 2 feet).

When problem started, he was head bobbing when ridden at trot. Walk and canter seemed OK. Not reluctant to go forward, he’s slightly lazy but a good boy just could tell he wasn’t comfortable. Feet xrayed and fine. Saddle fit checked. Basic flexion and neuro exam by vet. Vet says get on horse with halter only (no bridle) and trots without head bobbing! (Was ridden in myler comfort snaffle.)
Per vet, ride horse bitless and work on strengthening stifle - not cause of problems but horse too tight behind and that will help see what else is going on. So rode a few weeks bitless and horse seemed okay - likes carrying head low and on the forehand but that is typical for him. Tried riding really forward, letting him carry head however he wanted. No head bobbing, but after a few weeks tried with bit and head bobbing again.
Get dental specialist out. Dentist says overall mouth looks good; a few sharp points on front molars but nothing that would make him say it would cause this amount of discomfort but perhaps horse just particularly sensitive. Also horse has very small mouth with slight overbite. Dentist says horse has a weak tongue, so might be harder for him to place and hold bit where it’s most comfortable. Vet and dentist suggest trying mullen mouth bit. Horse does not seem to like it though.
Vet, body worker, and trainer all agree something is bothering him but cannot pinpoint. Gets a bit stiffer behind when not in work, but overall doesn’t get better or worse being worked harder or with time off he’s pretty much the same.
Videos today lunging with the mullen mouth bit. Sorry I’m

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not very coordinated trying to film and lunge at same time. What would you look into next?
Trying to keep this from being too long but happy to answer questions.

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[Obsidian_Fire]

I see a horse who appears unmotivated to be anywhere in a hurry. That said, only on the canter video is he working his mouth. I don’t know if that’s because you are lunging him off the bit and it’s bouncing with his stride, or something else.
Stiff behind when not in work, I would start there. How are his hocks? How’s his back, SI, stifles, etc.?
What about his neck?
Those are places I’d be looking.

[Training_Cupid]

Yes I guess that’s my main question at this point, Have I ruled out enough that it is fair to ask him to work harder and see what we have?

[luvmyhackney]

I would probably try Adequan and start xraying hocks and feet. Adequan should loosen him up and then X-rays can tell you if feet are an issue. Usually when they don’t want to go forward, their feet hurt.

[Periwinkle]

Does contact vs loose rein make a difference either bitted or bitless? Mine went totally fine on a loose rein but felt very stuck/not forward/swapping canter leads behind with any amount of contact. His poll was the problem.

[Training_Cupid]

The feet are the one thing I have x rayed! Everything looked fine there.

[Training_Cupid]

I’ve mainly just been letting him go on a long rein, but taking it up for short stretches didn’t seem to make much difference.

[cayuse]

TMJ maybe?

[Training_Cupid]

We thought TMJ too. My chiro is also a DMV and she’s come out twice and didn’t see anything too unusual just minor adjustments. Vet and I are kind of thinking lower neck, trainer said maybe shoulders. Adequan has been discussed, but want to deal with any more specific issues first if needed.
He does pick up and hold both canter leads.
Thanks for all the suggestions so far!

[beowulf]

Do you have files of the feet rads? After watching the videos that’s where I’d first dig if it were me.

The first thing I noticed is he does not have full ROM in the left front trotting, particularly the pastern. But it looks like that may be a red herring — his shoulders are not moving freely. Could it be from foot pain? Shoulder pain? Something else? He moves as overall body sore. I certainly see what you and your vet see here, he is not 100% but it also looks like there’s a few different things clouding a clear picture here. He is weak behind and I do see a difference in both LH and RH stifle. To me the RH looks like it wants to deload early.

I also noticed more so in the walk video, he looks sore behind. His tail is clamped and the hocks are quick to deload. In the walk you can also see again, some head bobbing.

Overall the picture of your boy does look uncomfortable. Stepping away from the videos a moment to look at his body, it does look as some muscling is undeveloped — maybe in light of that NQR off-on you’ve mentioned has been happening for the last year. Do you have some comparison videos of him lunging bitless?

When I experience a horse that seems to present with several different complaints at once I try triaging. First ruling out the most likely suspects - in my area that’s Lyme and bad hoof angles. After that I start looking at what the flexions tell me if anything. You mentioned he was flexed by the vet, but I missed it — how did he flex?

I hope you can get some answers. If you do please report back.

[Training_Cupid]

Thank you for the detailed response! He flexed sound, vet just said he was tight in the hind end but not worse when flexed. I would need to get a copy of rads from my vet, but his feet have been xrayed several times since I’ve had him with vet and shoer working together to keep him as sound and happy as we can. He’s always been kind of a tight horse, never slipped a stifle but that RH is tight. I go through phases when I’m good about doing stretches with him but admittedly haven’t been consistent.
He sees the chiro about once a month, and we’ve recently started some bemer sessions. He is turned out with a herd from 9-3:30, and inside the rest of the time.
I don’t have any more recent videos, can try to get some if it’s not monsooning the next few days! Here is one, lunging without bit from last summer (was trialing the saddle, not what we ride in), before the intermittent head bobbing but yes still kind of tight.

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He’s a good boy and I want to help him. My vet is annoyingly pragmatic sometimes, when I tell him to just take my money and xray everything

[IPEsq]

When you ride bitless, is he connected, on some kind of contact? What happens when you ride with a bit but absolutely no contact? Just trying to sort out pressure points and postural considerations.

[Bristol_Bay]

He moves like my horse that’s neurological. How does he feel under saddle? Any tripping or stumbling?

[Training_Cupid]

I started with a side pull (the thinline one), he stops and steers fine but doesn’t really respond by softening the poll just lowering his head and neck.
I tried a bosal and had a better response to that. So I bought a decent bosal (Buckaroo) but it has cheap light cotton reins, I think I need better reins with a bit more weight for it to be effective. Obviously with the bosal I don’t maintain contact just pick it up to ask him to carry himself. We’re mainly working on that in the walk, doing a stretchy trot set, more walk, then trying a bit of trot with more of a “frame” and a bigger step.

[Training_Cupid]

No doesn’t really trip or stumble. We occasionally ride on fairly technical trails, he’s also fine going both up and down hills.
One thing about our arena, especially lately with thr weather the footing does really clump up. Sometimes when he does the bobbing I get off, check his feet and see indeed the footing is packed in so he’s basically walking on a ball so I pick his feet. But I don’t think that explains every instance.

[greywithchrome]

Based on nothing but a feeling I think I would check neck. Body looks uncomfortable but not lame per say. The way he holds his head/neck/shoulders is as if he doesn’t want to jostle anything, and that is translating down the body.

He looks like he would be such a lovely horse! I can see why you want to help him.

[Simkie]

I agree Lyme is worth ruling out. Are you in an area where it’s a problem?

[Training_Cupid]

CA, not very prevalent here.

[IPEsq]

I got a chance to watch the videos, and I’d investigate the neck. Maybe start with ultrasound. His way of going reminds me of a TB with lower neck issues (including malformations), but with the whole bridle and bit thing, I’d also want to see what’s going on everywhere, including the poll.

Interesting that he can carry himself ok in the Bosal…so what is it about contact? (Head bobbing with a bit and low and heavy with a side pull). There’s a horse at my barn with neck issues and he can look ok on the longe even in a bridle but not ok under saddle, and he’s super fussy in the contact, when the neck is bothering him. And he’s showing and training FEI levels in dressage otherwise, so clearly can handle some contact when he feels good. His problems are low down in the neck but he’s also weird about stuff up at the ears.

[TWH_Girl]

Where specifically did the vet flex and what were the responses? I think blocking would be helpful based on flexions. It could still very well be front end even if it’s not bony issues in feet. I feel like this requires a vet with a good lameness eye, step by step flexions and then X-rays and blocks based on those findings. Find a good lameness vet, give them a budget and let them decide where to look.
It’s certainly not uncommon that a horse front end loads and looks off there but in reality the issue is in the hind. I’ve seen that happen in stifle and SI issues on a few over the years.