I’m ignorant - does a frangible activation count as a fall?
Your entire most recent post was fabulous @Benchmark, I agree completely.
I agree with OaO that I didn’t see any frangibles activated at Burghley that I felt were “unfair” (aka I did not see any activations that looked to be a result of a tap, they were all proper impacts and some would have been horse falls). All activations were well earned. Interestingly though, and perhaps related, I did not see any yellow MIM clips anywhere on course.
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But rules are rules and need to be applied consistently at all levels (except in America, of course) and I’m speaking generally about 11 for a pin not so specifically about good/bad/unlucky decisions about pins at Burghley. I probably didn’t make that clear. Recall Jung at Tokyo, wasn’t that a pin?
@endlessclimb No, a pin can go without a horse fall. Indeed, if the safety device is working correctly it should prevent a fall. A fall requires both shoulder and quarter to hit the ground and/or jump. A horse that pecks badly on landing and goes onto its knees but then picks itself up and gallops on is not a horse fall. A horse on its side with its shoulders and head on the jump is a horse fall.
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All the thinner timbered oxers were MIM. E.g. the “triple bar” blue skinny on Winners’ Avenue after the Pardubice and Irish bank fence.
So let’s count the pins against the rider in some way. If a rider is riding recklessly and activating pins left and right, there should be a penalty. If they activated one in a blue moon that might have been weakened by multiple hits, then it won’t matter. Activate 3 in a year and you’re not qualified for your level anymore, learn how to ride better.
Right, but all of those were red MIM clips (the ones we have had for years that don’t tend to cause problems). I did not see any yellow MIM clips (the newly introduced clips for corners/angles that break with less impact and caused significant controversy, especially at Tokyo). Do we think designers have got away from corners that can be clipped to avoid them, and are building solid ones instead? Did I just miss them?
No.
Pins fall for all types of reasons, riding recklessly is the least common.
Misjudging a fence by the horse.
Horse not being quick enough behind or in front (We used to be able to slide over fences, so horses who work this way are at a disadvantage) - an example is when a horse drops the hind after seeing the ditch in a coffin, hitting the pin on the first element.
Horse gets trapped in fence while refusing
Horse genuinely doesn’t jump in time and would have a fall but doesn’t or does.
None of these are really the riders fault.
The riders are already getting punished enough for the pin. 11 penalties is A LOT in eventing.
Also the pins are checked after every touch and changed if they are compromised.
It is important to be educated on these things before making sweeping change suggestions to the sport.
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The corners were all pinned, at least the open ones.
Look. I understand all that.
The comments about the pins being fatigued is where I was commenting on. I don’t think your average jump judge is a metallurgist, a welder, or has x-ray vision. They don’t know what fatigue looks like, or it may not be visible with the construction of the jump.
It has been mentioned over and over and over here, even by you when about half the field activated one at a water jump at Badminton a while back, that frangibles can encourage more reckless riding. It has been seen on several top tracks. It has been commented on by the announcers.
So - let’s NOT penalize with an 11 one frangible activation, on the chance that it was metal fatigue that caused the tap to be “the straw the broke the camels back”. Let’s DO penalize repeated activation of frangibles in a 12 month rolling period, because it’s likely that a rider that activates three or more IS riding recklessly.
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Do you mean pinned (as in, the traditional style of frangible pins) or clipped (as in MIM clipped)? If clipped, do you know if red or yellow?
I don’t think you do understand actually so I will explain. The TD/course designer/course builder and the jump judge are trained and advised on the pins. When a jump is hit or triggered they are called to come over and reset the pins or review. A TD report is made on things. This happens at the smallest venues that have frangibles. There is no point having frangibles if you don’t have the know how to use and maintain them.
I don’t remember the comment I made you are referring to about Badminton but it would likely have been referring to a specific rider and not the pins. Or perhaps a design flaw with one jump, but don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. That was also 4 months ago and lots of discussion and learning has happened in regards to pins. It’s an ongoing conversation on many podcasts with professionals regularly chiming in on it.
I don’t think a single pin at Burghley was triggered by reckless riding.
If pins can trigger a downgrade it will really ruin course design and cause riders to ride way over cautious which can be deadly on XC.
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Sorry I used pinned interchangeably on that.
For the white oxers the first rail had red mims and the back rail had pins. I’ll see what I can see for the corners.
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That’s just it though - pin*S*.
Lots of riders complain they got an 11 not because of their own hit, but because of the many before. This is unlikely to happen often, so they can’t say their 3 (or 5, or whatever) activations are due to metal fatigue.
Even your TD is not a metallurgist, a welder, or has xray vision.
How do you deal with that problem of a horse like Jung’s (I believe) who barely touches a jump and it falls? That’s making XC into SJ, which is also not the point.
Do you examples where this has ever happened? I have never seen a pin activated from a small touch.
I take MJs lead and say that it sucks but its better than dead riders in the long run. No one has seen the video so we really can’t comment.
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Well there’s photos of him 3-4 strides from the fence and it’s still up.
There’s also this one: https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=249020293508695&t=6
The fact that riders not only have to judge the fence, judge the terrain, judge the line… now they ALSO have to ask “is that a yellow or a red clip?” is pushing it.
Why not make the activations cumulative? Why wouldn’t you support that, when you’re so passionate about safe riding? A rider that activates a frangible more than 3 times in a 12 month rolling period is NOT riding safely. Period!
Well Sam himself wasn’t mad about that. Disappointing yes.
That one looks like a building flaw. Why again should riders be penalized for that?
Hmmmm. You can’t see the clip itself from that angle, but you are right that it’s clearly MIM, and it’s clearly a corner, so presumably it’s yellow. I don’t believe that fell all day, which is great (please correct me if I’m wrong). If so, it seems designers and riders have figured out how to stay onside of those, which is excellent news.
Thank you for digging that up!
No this one didn’t fall at all, which is surprising when you see just how narrow it is!
