Land use/restriction questions

[Libera]

We put in an offer on a 10 acre property today!

We did put in a contingency to perform a feasibility study, because we wanted to make sure there are no constrictions on the land use that would keep us from turning it into a horse farm.

There are two things I found on the county website regarding this parcel:

• There is a 6 year development moratorium that was started in 2014 when it was logged. According to county website it is possible to get it lifted. Anyone have any experience with this? As in, how much of a pain in the butt would this be? There is a house already but we want to build a barn and level an area for riding.

• Part of the property seems to be in a wetland review area. The property next door is actual delineated wetlands and the buffer extends onto ‘our’ property. Can you fence this for pasture? How hard is it to get a permit to build close to or onto the buffer area?

I know it is different for every part of the country and in every state, just looking for some general experiences/advice.
Going in tomorrow to talk to county as well.

[clanter]

Mostly unanswerable questions without at least providing a state or location.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=clanter;8919868]
Mostly unanswerable questions without at least providing a state or location.[/QUOTE]

Plus, all those questions should have been answered before even thinking on any property as suitable?

With today’s overregulation, I would not even want to start with those issues.
Wetland rules are so very fuzzy, anyone in power to regulate will do practically what it wants to do.

Fighting them is not worth anyone’s time.

I expect the price of that land is super cheap, reflecting that?

[clanter]

[QUOTE=Bluey;8919917]

Wetland rules are so very fuzzy,
?[/QUOTE]

and you best not be on a migratory route of some protect frog or something

[equest]

I would strongly recommend hiring a local attorney who is familiar with your local rules and restrictions. Advice from this forum is totally useless because we have no idea of what restrictions apply and what the criteria are for considering development or wetlands impacts on your property.
(I am an attorney who practices in this field)

[2DogsFarm]

What equest said. In Spades.

Well worth whatever consultation fee attorney may charge to avoid headaches or purchase of land that can’t be used as you want.

I bought my farmette when local Zoning permitted 1 “large animal” for the first 3.5 acres, then 1 for every added acre.
So at 5ac I just squeaked by for my 2 horses.
The next year zoning in my county was changed to permit 1 large animal for every 5 acres.
If I had not already built my barn before the change, permitting may have run into some barriers.

[clanter]

[QUOTE=equest;8920064]
I would strongly recommend hiring a local attorney )[/QUOTE]

from my past experiences a real estate attorney’s fees are the least expensive in the legal profession… it is cheap to have a knowledge individual review or even handle such a purchase. There are just too many twists and turns … and its not everyday most of us go out to spend a half million dollars or so yet we think all there is to do is sign on the line? not me

[Garythesquirrel]

I’m in the PNW and I know that here I would never even consider buying a piece of property with even a hint of wetland on it.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=Garythesquirrel;8920258]
I’m in the PNW and I know that here I would never even consider buying a piece of property with even a hint of wetland on it.[/QUOTE]

Because of the actual abundance of water we have here, or because of regulation?

Here in Oregon, there are wetlands-zoned pieces of land that require permits from a state agency, not just the county. It adds another layer of bureacracy and expense to development.

OP, it seems to me that the questions you are asking us are exactly what you’d be paying your land use consultant or attorney to do in that feasibility study.

I thought of doing that, too. Of course, I did lots my my own research before I was going to hire the land use guy to do that formal study for money. However, I never got as far as to ask him if he guaranteed that his interpretation of how permits and such would work actually would fly with the right agencies.

I’ll be curious to see how this piece of business works out for you. I hope that it does… whether you can buy the property with confidence that you’ll be able to build what you’d like, or whether you pay a little bit of money to find out that you shouldn’t sink a whole lot of money into this piece of land.

[Garythesquirrel]

@mvp;8920279

Because of the actual abundance of water we have here, or because of regulation?

Because of regulation and restrictions.

[arlosmine]

I know someone who had to “cut off” three stalls and a 12" corner of the indoor arena she was building. That portion of the building fell on a thirty year flood plane for the creek that was 1/4 mile away. Huge pain in the butt.

[Libera]

Thanks for all the answers!

This is in the PNW… There is no actual wetland on the property itself, I just want to make sure the wetlands next door don’t put any restrictions on our land use.

Going in to talk to the county today, and will look into a real estate attorney as well. This is an otherwise perfect piece of horse property for us, which is why we secured it with a conditional offer. It is on a very slight hill, so all water runs off, it is a nice rectangular shape, soil drains well and there are some mature trees already in place.

[ReSomething]

If y’all remember that lot I had for sale as part of my father’s estate? Now contingent sold at half the original price because of, dun dun dun, wetlands within 100 feet. Contingent, mind you. So I’m not holding my breath.

I’d get the land use consultant with connections or attorney, whatever the local version is, and vest your proposed changes ASAP once your connection says some thing can be done. Get the signature on the dotted line and the permits in hand.

[CupcakeTough]

Wetlands will be an issue, even of your neighbor’s property because there will be a buffer zone. You need to see if there’s a wetland delineation on the books. There are usually both state and federal regulations at play. Generally, yes, you can graze livestock on a wetland or buffer, but you may be prevented from mowing, building, or creating a drainage system. Also, mosquitos suck.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=Garythesquirrel;8920295]
Because of regulation and restrictions.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for clarifying.

So many people up here will say, “I have never seen that place flood and I have lived her 30 years,”… as if past performance is a reliable indicator for our future of global warming. In addition, these people (like most of us) know nothing about the intricacies of zoning and development. So you can get a lot of bad advice without it’s being obviously bad.

Due diligence when it comes to bare land and wells and such is tough for the layman.

[Guilherme]

IIRC a “wetlands” is a legal status based upon the geography and the the vegetation on the property. If there are legal wetlands nearby you’ll have to deal with that.

Is there a current survey of the property and will the owner of the survey allow you to use it? You should have your own survey when it comes time to prepare for closing but if you have a valid survey you can provide that to the people who will be looking at the legal status of the land.

You can also call folks like the Soil Conservation office for that area. They have maps that often will tell a story about the land.

Once the Alphabet Soup becomes involved you can bet your costs of acquisition will rise, and maybe substantially. And not for moving dirt or building anything, just so that somebody can “bless and approve” a decision.

G.

[AKB]

Talk with the county zoning, permits, and land use people. Then talk with your county supervisor’s office. The supervisor’s office should be able to tell you who you will need to talk with. If they feel that building a barn will be difficult, I would not even waste money on a land use attorney. Maybe this will be easy, but I would talk with others who have been through it, as well as all of the local officials. A friend spent $100,000 and a year, getting a permit to teach a few beginner lessons on her 10 acre property.

[walkers]

Been there ,done this, 10 acres in 100 year flood next to wetlands. It made for great pasture especially when every place else was dry from a drought. However be aware that your water table may be very high and if your soil is not sand then you will be looking at mud once the horses get on it. With a high water table you won’t be able to do anything about the mud.
Also forget building on it, one of the barns on our place was there long before all the regulations and the stalls would get muddy in a wet year and there were old water marks on some of the lower boards.There were stalls I could never use except in drought yrs.
So a lot depends on your soil . a cheap way to start is take a shovel go to the lower part of the property and see how quickly you find water.
If you have sandy soil and you need to dig down and make sure the sand is not just sitting on clay , if so then you can grow some great grass, a good hay field but keep the horses off it.

[horsepoor]

I hope OP reports back after meeting with the county. I am risk adverse and probably would have done the due diligence prior to an offer, and just on the face of it, what was described would have me quite leery in my part of the world (SW WA State). But if I fell in love with a certain house and property…who knows, I might change my mind!

[HungarianHippo]

You mentioned that the “border” of your neighbor’s delineated wetlands extends onto your property. Then you also have delineated wetlands on your property. It does not have to have water to be wetlands (which is what I assume you meant when you say it’s not an “actual” wetland?). There are emerging wetlands, ephemeral wetlands, etc.
There are agricultural exemptions to the Clean Water Act (CWA Section 404) but since it is not fenced now or farmed now you can’t claim that it’s an existing agricultural operation. Just on what you’ve shared, it’s very unlikely that you can fence, graze, or mow that area without violating CWA.

The govt has tons of pretty helpful explanations about what you can and can’t do within defined wetlands area under CWA Section 404. Worth reading to get yourself educated, since you are shopping for land where wetlands are known to exist. That way you can do your own “fatal flaw” analysis on a property that you’re interested in, and then follow up with stuff like feasibility studies only on those properties that pass your initial review.

Long story short, if the wetlands boundary does extend into the area you want to fence, personally I wouldn’t bother with the expense of a feasibility study. I antcipate you’ll have a long permit process ahead of you (with a pessimistic outcome) trying to get the USACE, your state DNR, local busybodies, etc to approve your land use.