If you look at a pedigree which has Princequillo on both the top and bottom, you will see that he is underlined when the horse could have inherited the X chromosome from him in that path, and not when it couldn’t.
in fact, in a 4 generation pedigree there are only 6 black, the rest are blue
Okay, so I loaded the wrong one of Buzz, so I’ll put up another of Buzz and then one of Cigar . . .
If your (male) horse’s dam is underlined in blue (double copy), he definitely has it. If she is underlined in red (at least a single copy) he has at least a 50% chance.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Moose:
I have a mare that was never raced and not listed at this site, that is out of Nellie Win and Banner Bob. Nellie Win’s full sister-Creme Caromel, was also bred to Banner Bob, producing a Colt named San Rocco, which lights up as a double copy in blue,for the x-factor.
Would it be safe for me to believe that there is chance this mare may carry this gene as well?
[This message was edited by Moose on May. 12, 2002 at 12:50 AM.]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Moose, I looked up San Rocco and you are looking at the blue underline wrong. See my response above to Nancy. However, in this pedigree there are two “blue x-factor” horses (Bloodroot and Bimlett) and quite a few "red x-factor horses (Bimelech, Mar-kell, No Robbery, Lismara). Lismara had a 50/50 chance of passing the gene on to her daughters Creme Caromel OR Nellie Win, who each had a 50/50 chance of passing the gene (IF received) on to any son or daughter, including your horse. So there is a, hmm, about 25 percent chance your horse carries it.
Singing Native has a bit more than a 75% chance of having the “X-factor” for a large heart.
Libby
Wow… another event person looking into the large heart theory.
I’d love to hear more abour your research? My email is jdufort@aol.com.
I’ve got my own “amateur” tool I have used to compare and evaluate eventing prospects, and the large heart factor is an important piece. Also, the appearance of certain lines.
Interestingly enough, our trainers veteran Rolex horse scores the highest of any horse we have charted - and the’s the top performing event horse I’ve charted.
Our guy (Northlight) may also have a large heart. You can find him on DelMar as Diamondham, 1993, out of Vanlandingham (Eclipse Award winner) by Mulberry Moon.
Northlight has been eventing since spring 2000, and he was 2nd last weekend in his first CCI* - not bad progression. He’s running Intermediate like a champ, and we think he’ll be running Advanced sometime next spring.
Breeding is no guarantee - but it does stack the decks. I agree.
Jeanne
back through the horses listed here that someone else hasn’t ably answered questions on 
Gotspots: First, I corrected a couple of things in Del Mar and got Chantilly Gray to show up in the TB database. Assuming that their x-factor indicator doesn’t know everything (i.e. I still don’t know how it can show the gene not passing along, since most of these horses haven’t been measured) there is a good chance that Spot’s dam does have it. The x-factor indicator lights up on both the top and bottom of her pedigree. Since it only underlines places where it would be in a position to pass it along, and it shows up in both the top and the bottom, there are three possibilities for her: no gene, single-copy and double copy.
Very interesting stuff. 
I’ll keep digging on some of the other horses mentioned here 
Libby (really better than work!)
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bensmom:
The four heart lines that Haun mentions in her book are Blue Larkspur, Mahmoud, War Admiral, and Princequillo. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oooo, you guys can help me out. I was just talking with Fairweather about My appendix’s dam who was an OTTB. Turns out she’s got Princequillo in her pedegree. Can you guys take a look at it and tell me what you see. Admitedly i know NOTHING really about TB breeding, I just know i fell in love with the mare when i saw her.
I posted a jpeg of Chi-Chi’s pedegree. Take a looksy
– Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society.
If you have an older browser, Del Mar’s site says the lines won’t show up even when the option is selected.
I’ll grab the 2d x-factor book, which has more about the physical characteristics this afternoon and post some of those, and also if I remember to, I’ll take some pics of Buzz and show some of the War Admiral physical traits.
I’m going to be gone all afternoon to have blood tests run on Ben, so I may not get back to the computer before tomorrow, but I’ll put up more then.
Golf Course Spy has one double copy mare, Hipparete, and this x is in a position to have been passed dam-dam-sire-dam to your horse. Again, I just glanced at it quickly and didn’t dig, but that is what Del Mar had listed.
Thanks for all the input, guys!
Libby
Goodness, this is interesting.
Out of curiosity, how is it determined that a horse carries the gene?
I just looked up my TB (Chief’s Ahead, by Snow Chief and out of Clearly Ahead), and he’s got some of the gene way back. Nothing in the more recent generations, though… does this mean the gene was lost, or just that it’s not known if those horses carry it or not?
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Now, on Run Apalachee Run, hey, Lisamarie8, since you don’t know much about TB pedigrees, wanna sell this mare? Just without digging very far, she’s got Double Jay in a position to pass the gene (although unmarked by Del Mar – odd) Mahmoud, bred to a double copy mare in a position to pass the gene, she goes back to Domino, again in a position to pass through Gala Bell, and Sandury, on the bottom side is a daughter of War Admiral. Plus, she’s got lots of other good horses scattered throughout. She crosses well with Quarter Horses? <sigh – that’s what I want to find eventually is a well bred TB to cross with QHs >
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I’d love to have this mare
I just checked one of my horses, Winnepesaukee and It looks like his dam carries the gene…can someone take a look?
Always,
FairWeather
"Just call me mint jelly cuz i’m on the lamb!–Grandpa
http://www.fairweather-farm.com
ok what all do you need to look up my horse and give me your fantastic insite? His name is saucy tai, out of convention(IRE) out of THe mare Ms. sweet and saucy… I know secretariet is in there pretty close… Will you help me??
kmk
And Cigar . .
Thanks,
I guess I had it backwards when I looked at the pedigree and then tried to remember/decipher all the info I had read here.
I thought the red underline meant a definate; but as I always say “I am far from perfect”!
[QUOTE]Originally posted by AllyCat:
By your explanation, the single-copy mares and stallions carry it on one X chromo. Stallions only have one X so they will always pass it on to a daughter, but not a son.
With the single copy mares, they are only going to pass it to 50% of the offspring, male or female. (wait a minute, drawing Punnet square). Okay, 50% of the male offspring and 50% of the females. So a single copy male and a single copy female mating will produce 25% double copy females, 25% single copy females, 25% single copy males, and 25% non-carrier males. Right?
YES
So that would explain why she could have a non-carrier male from a mating of one single-copy male and female in the lineage.
YES
What I guess I don’t understand is how does it know? I mean the computer? How does it know that particular male offspring was the carrier or not? Is that where the X-chromosome feature comes into play? I didn’t understand that part, but now it makes sense.
I HAVE NO IDEA! I’m just trying to interpret the Del Mar info, but I don’t know how the info was input or how the programming works. Sorry!
Alleycat, what is the name of your horse so I can look it up in the database? I’m curious about our “cousins.”
Im wading into TB breeding but am having difficulty getting started; what is the title of the Haun book referred to? What other books could I read to further my knowlege base?
Big Question: My tb mare “Story Time” has Blue Larkspur, Mahmoud, War Admiral an the dams side as wall as Nearco-Royal Charger, Eight Thirty, Polynesian, Man o’War, and Menow also on the bottom–how does this add up to you?
Other question to those ‘In the Know’: I’m breding thes mare to Loyal Pal soon–does this seem a reasonable cross?
Any input appreciated
GotSpots – you are absolutely correct – on the all breeds site there isn’t the option to select the x-factor display. I’m not sure why she appears there and not in the TB database. With some more time, I can wiggle around and see if I can add the missing horses in her pedigree.
You are also correct that a larger heart means a more efficient “engine” to be able to run xc – I’ve also been interested to see if it correlates to an emotional large “heart” i.e. the willingness to try, even when the going gets rough. And, again, I think since so many upper level horses are geldings, and frequently those who didn’t do well at the track, the pedigree may be the best indicator, other than actual performance of the horse in question. It is interesting to see how many horses don’t have an impressive racing record and that it doesn’t have much to do with them – they can end up not racing at all (My Ben was injured before he was two and would have missed his lucrative 2 year old year, so he never raced) or be poorly managed and not do well and this will not be indicative of how good they really can be.
Jeanne – I will definitely e-mail you with some of my random thoughts – I’m just starting to attempt to bring order to the info I’ve been squirreling away in various folders and notebooks for the last couple of years. Marianna Haun’s x-factor books are excellent. I’ve gone through the second one first and am now reading in the first one.
One thing important to remember about this stuff, of course, is that there are great horses out there with “normal” hearts. Bold Ruler and Mr. Prospector are just two. And, of course, the sire can pass along other traits that contribute to a great horse.
FWIW, people keep mentioning that War Emblem didn’t have a very impressive pedigree. I’d disagree with that, as he goes back to the War Admiral heart on the bottom – way back, but still, it is there in transmittable female line, and he is a cross to Mr. Prospector’s speed on the top. A very nice cross, if you ask me
Libby (which of course, no one did, and I didn’t even see the Derby as I was out on I-10, searching for something that had blown out of my truck at post time. <sigh> )
klr – I am such a novice with TB pedigrees, and am really out of my area of expertise in evaluating crosses, but it looks as if you mare has a chance of carrying the large heart gene, as does Loyal Pal.
So many other factors go into making a good cross, though, that I can’t say for sure whether this factor would figure in or be an important consideration.
I can say that breeding to any of Denny’s stallions seems a reasonable cross to me! Someday, someday, I want a Reputed Testamony baby
Libby (who needs to be forced to chant “No more horses” hundreds of times a day)
Wow! I am so excited that other eventers are interested in this stuff as well.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I knew that when Secretariat was autopsied it was found that the size of his heart was much larger than average. I also know (after prematurely being labled a dud in the sire department) that he became one of the top broodmare sires in modern history. Am I making too big of a leap here to assume the x-chromosome related “large heart” was a big contributing factor? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
As Gry2yng said, this is exactly why Secretariat was prematurely labled a “dud” in the breeding shed. In fact, two of the horses that Slew sired that are cited as proof of his greatness as a sire (A.P. Indy, and Summer Squall) carried Secretariat’s heart through their dam, Weekend Surprise. Though, it is interesting that Slew’s heart did run on in Cigar, through his dam, Solar Slew a daughter of Seattle Slew.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Luminary Princess and tell me if she should carry the single gene? 3 of her 4 great-grand-dams are underlined, and both of her grand-dams, so shouldn’t she have it too? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Oooo, you guys can help me out. I was just talking with Fairweather about My appendix’s dam who was an OTTB. Turns out she’s got Princequillo in her pedegree. Can you guys take a look at it and tell me what you see. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Keeping in mind that I am not an expert at this stuff . . . . I did take a look at both mares, and um, can I say wow?!
First on Luminary Princess – since she is a mare, both sides of her pedigree are important in terms of the x-factor. On very bottom of the top side of her pedigree, she has, to quote Haun, “the very good broodmare sire, Double Jay.” (XFactor 1, pg. 87) His daughter, Continue, has a green star in the Del Mar database marking her as a “Rein de Course” or on the list of great broodmares. Because her dam is also marked as carrying the x-factor it is probable that she is a double copy mare. The large heart gene probably traveled all the way down to Illuminate, your mare’s sire, and if he had the gene, it would have passed to his daughter.
The fun part of your mare’s pedigree, though is on her dam’s side. Citation is all the way at the bottom – another great runner considered to be a “dud” as a sire at first. He was bred to Alablue, who is a daughter of Blue Larkspur. She also goes back to War Admiral through War Siren, and descends through Princess Jane W., who interestingly enough is also in the bottom of Martian Tiger’s pedigree, though I inputted her as simply Princess Jane, since that is how the Jockey Club had her listed.
There are a number of great horses in her pedigree, even where they are not in a position to pass along the large heart gene, they are still pretty cool. Turn To, for instance I’ve seen noted as a great sire of jumpers.
Now, on Run Apalachee Run, hey, Lisamarie8, since you don’t know much about TB pedigrees, wanna sell this mare? 
Just without digging very far, she’s got Double Jay in a position to pass the gene (although unmarked by Del Mar – odd) Mahmoud, bred to a double copy mare in a position to pass the gene, she goes back to Domino, again in a position to pass through Gala Bell, and Sandury, on the bottom side is a daughter of War Admiral. Plus, she’s got lots of other good horses scattered throughout. She crosses well with Quarter Horses? <sigh – that’s what I want to find eventually is a well bred TB to cross with QHs >
All of this is terrifically interesting, in fact, I can spend hours paying attention to this and not working (or, shoot, sleeping, as was pointed out to me last night that I really had to wait until this morning to reply on this thread again ) but Jeanne makes an excellent point:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The trouble with proving this is that the final answer comes either from expensive diagnosis or from autopsy. And Haun has not opened her research to scrutiny from others, so some question the robustness of her theories.
But its interesting. What seems to make some sense, is that almost all of the top racing horses track positive for this trait. Not to say that all horses with this trait become top race horses - in fact, only a small percentage become really succesful. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I believe that Haun has stated that the large heart characteristic is no more than about 23% of what makes a good horse. And, you can have a horse with a large heart that for many other reasons, either doesn’t race or doesn’t want to event. I am hoping to find a way to have my boys tested at some point, just to see if my pedigree research bears itself out. All of the factors needed to make a great race or sport horse have to be there – training, management, and the genes in order for a horse to be really successful, but this is a fun thing to look into and a useful thing to know.
Libby
