Large hearted event horses (was Martian Tiger)

[tle]

Libby,

Thanks so much for the detail on Char’s pedigree. It’s all pretty fascinating, but somethign I haven’t taken the time necessary to really “know” anything about.

As for your question on how we choose the horse… I can’t answer it. I found Char before I even knew Eventing existed… and if you remember, didn’t know her true breeding until a few short months ago.

---

If Dressage is a Symphony… Eventing is Rock & Roll!

[I]Survivor thoughts – Episode 11… Why the tears? I think it’s “Message from Home” time… Neleh or Robert gets the axe.

GO RED WINGS!!![/I]

[Bensmom]

I’m running really late and I have to tack Ben up and ride (oh, yay! 90+ degrees in the middle of the afternoon!) before the vet gets there to pull his blood after stress, so I won’t start digging on pedigrees, but Erin, I think sometimes Del Mar doesn’t show the gene if nothing much is known about the horse.

Jeanne, I have some questions for you and I’ll e-mail 'em tonight – and I may want to collect some more info from y’all and see about accumulating some data on horses currently eventing – this is such a wonderful resource!

Thanks for everyone’s interest – this has been my pet subject for a while – boy can I put people to sleep talking about this

Libby

[Seven]

The more I learn about my horse’s pedigree, the more amazed I am by him! I knew he was wonderful for me…but I love learning about the TB lines and seeing how many important ones pop up in his pedigree. Fun stuff!

=^+^=

I just haven’t been the same since that house fell on my sister.

[SGray]

Dancedale by Ribblesdale (blue) out of Dancing Croon (blue) [Dancedale is not listed]

Cloud Breaker [is listed, in blue] by Traffic Breaker out of Stormy Way

[Badger]

A google search turned up an article explaining the x-factor and talking in particular about it in QH lines as well as TB:

http://www.horsesonly.com/crossroads/xfactor/heart-1.htm

Bensmom: any talk of a particularly deep “heartgirth” to house that big ol’ heart? My mare has a deep heartgirth, which helps take up my long legs.

[EventGurlie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NancyL:

I thought the red underline meant a definate; but as I always say “I am far from perfect”!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

When i did it on Del mar…at the top it says Highlight: X-chromosome…so i clicked thtat and it had everything that carried down in a darker colored background…i hope thats what we were supposed to look for lol!

~Nicole~

[Badger]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:
If your (male) horse’s dam is underlined in blue (double copy), he definitely has it. If she is underlined in red (at least a single copy) he has at least a 50% chance.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Correct. And just to expand/clarify: A male horse CAN’T have a double copy, as the gene is carried on the x-chromosome and a male (xy) only has one x-chromosome. Therefore a male who has the gene will be underlined in red (single copy) and never blue. A dam who carried a single copy (one x has it, one doesn’t) will have the red underline, and a dam the has the double copy (both x chromosomes have it) will have the heavy blue underline.

EXAMPLE: look up the mare “Caps and Bells” who is a double copy mare with numerous double and single copy horses in her pedigree. The underlining at the bottom of the “box” in the horses pedigree is the x-factor indicator.

[ASC]

Yes - Riverdale was at TLC. We bought him from Laura in April 2001 and moved him to “our” farm. He’s my mom’s horse. We think he’s quite the nice boy – if you don’t mind the occasional “Jaws” impression!

Thanks for the nice words about him.

[Badger]

Question about the “x-factor” on the Del Mar site: when I do this for my mare’s pedigree, I get a lot of horses with red underlining and one (Cap and Bells) with blue underlining. What do these things mean?

Which are the four “large heart” lines you refer to? I know about Secretariat, but nothing beyond that.

[GotSpots]

Libby – thanks! I think this stuff is really interesting. I had been trying to do it from her breeding and trying to track the names and wasn’t coming up with even the possibility, so it’s interesting to see what Del Mar thinks. I don’t know whether he has it or not as I’m not good enough at picking out the physical links (and he’s got that zany spotted thing going on anyway!)

My goal for this weekend is to pick up a copy of the book on this and dive in. Hmmm, UCC versus equine breeding analysis…that’s a no brainer.

[tle]

Ok, I’m trying to figure all this out and while biology was a favorite of mine in school, I’m still not 100% sure on reading pedigrees… so bear with me.

If the x-factor is carried by the mares, and a my girl’s great-dam on her sire’s side had the x-factor… wouldn’t it have passed through her sire to her? Is that how it works? Her sire would have gotten his X gene from his dam which in turn he would have HAD to pass on to any female get? Geez, I think I’m confusing myself. I do see the red underlines in Char’s pedigree (listed as gag Tippateena), but not sure if I fully understand how it works. Keep posting… maybe I’ll figure it out (thanks for all the great info to date)… and if you care to look at her pedigree and let me know if I’m on the right track, I’d appreciate it.

---

If Dressage is a Symphony… Eventing is Rock & Roll!

[I]Survivor thoughts – Episode 11… Why the tears? I think it’s “Message from Home” time… Neleh or Robert gets the axe.

GO RED WINGS!!![/I]

[RacetrackReject]

One more question…

Could a racing bred Paint who was a Paint/ Appendix cross (dam was Appendix) have the large heart thing?

The dam’s Sire was Majestic Lover by B M’Lovelee who is out of Swaps and B My Bonny who are both marked for the x-factor (both go back to War Admiral). At least I think that’s correct, if I’m understanding what I’ve been reading.

Just wanted to add the horse’s registered name. It’s Boston Bar Link aka Kahlua

[This message was edited by texasgirl29 on May. 08, 2002 at 11:27 AM.]

[can_t_re]

I love looking up pedigrees and researching different lines.

I have a question…my mare was just bred to War Secretary, a son of SECRETARIAT. When I pull up War Secretary it doesn’t show the big heart at all on SECRETRIAT’s side. Does anyone know why it doesn’t show up???
Thanks

As is our confidence, so is our capacity.
~W. Hazlitt

[Carol_Ames]

One of my favorite quotes from the German breeding industry, which I’ve found to be very true is :“Good breeding shortens training time” ie., they come “out of the shell” knowing what to do

[Badger]

Windswept R Ana: the only “x-factor” underline that shows in her pedigree is a red one 5-generations back at “Jennifer.” Double Jay (good eventer line) does show up 3 generations back (tail male).

Barli Jean has 7 red-underlined “x-factor” carriers. This is an older horse, and had Teddy, a great sport horse bloodline, a ways back.

Saucy Tai’s dam side does not show up, and no red-underlining appears in her sire’s pedigree. Though Secretariat had the x-factor gene, he appears in the pedigree through the tail male line, so he did not pass on the x-factor.

[JER]

Libby, thanks for posting the info about other physical traits, but I was surprised that they were mostly observational, and not at all scientific. Put another way, ‘leaf-like ears’ is a rather subjective determination – there has to be some kind of standardized criteria for classifying these ear types as well as an actual statistical correlation between the ear type and the large heart (which I do know there’s an index for measuring, I think Dr. Norm Rantanen started doing this from ultrasounds in the early/mid 1980s).

The reason I’m saying this: instead of speculating whether your TB has the large heart/X-factor, you can always do an ultrasound if you want to know for sure.

[AllyCat]

We just went over this stuff in Anatomy/Phys. a couple weeks ago and this helps solidify it for the final! Guess I’m really confused about what double copy/single copy means in terms of the designation on the website.

By your explanation, the single-copy mares and stallions carry it on one X chromo. Stallions only have one X so they will always pass it on to a daughter, but not a son.

With the single copy mares, they are only going to pass it to 50% of the offspring, male or female. (wait a minute, drawing Punnet square). Okay, 50% of the male offspring and 50% of the females. So a single copy male and a single copy female mating will produce 25% double copy females, 25% single copy females, 25% single copy males, and 25% non-carrier males. Right?

So that would explain why she could have a non-carrier male from a mating of one single-copy male and female in the lineage.

What I guess I don’t understand is how does it know? I mean the computer? How does it know that particular male offspring was the carrier or not? Is that where the X-chromosome feature comes into play? I didn’t understand that part, but now it makes sense.

(Watch I’ll go look at it again, decide I STILL don’t know what I am talking about, and come back with another barrage of questions). I’ll look at some of the websites the others have posted.

Badger, do both our mares have Courtesy in their pedigrees? They’re relatives!

Thanks everyone–this is fascinating.

[Badger]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Moose:

This may have been already noted, but no mares at the site are listed as double copies, I imagine because the xx will always mean there is a random chance they have an opposite that can pop up from their history.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

??? I don’t understand this statement. There are plenty of mares at the site listed as double copies, and ALL their offspring will receive the gene from them and be at least single copy offspring (if the sire passes on the gene as well, the fillies will be double copies). Look up the mare Cap and Bells to see a double copy mare with numerous double and single copy ancestors.

[findeight]

For Bensmom and you other gurus…
OK I looked up my mare March’s Promise, selected for x factor then clicked highlight x cromosome and it did highlight. In fact it lit up, including herself.
Did I do it right?

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That’s the way it is.

[Bensmom]

The red lines are the single copy horses and the blue lines are the double copy horses (horses with one large hearted x and horses with both x’s being large hearted) The site says that it doesn’t highlight the horses with large heart genes that are not in a position to pass that gene along. The funny thing, though, is that some horses that ought to be double copy appear sometimes having a red line instead. Odd – but again, I am a real beginner at the this stuff, so I could have a misunderstanding of figuring it out myself.

The four heart lines that Haun mentions in her book are Blue Larkspur, Mahmoud, War Admiral, and Princequillo. They show up in TBs and QHs, and standardbreds as well. The second book has some fascinating info about the outward physical characteristics that appear to travel with each of the large heartlines.

Really cool stuff

Libby & Ben (whose mom was a double copy QH mare, and Buzzy, who appears to have the War Admiral heart, including the physical characteristics for it, but who won’t be able to use it if he doesn’t quit hurting himself!)