Large hearted event horses (was Martian Tiger)

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Badger:

Alleycat, what is the name of your horse so I can look it up in the database? I’m curious about our “cousins.”<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Badger, my horse’s name is Question Please. She looks so much like her paternal grandsire Round Table, who does not carry the gene that I am thinking she does not. But who knows? When I asked her, she said that it was a dumb question and refused to answer.

Bensmom: I am assuming this is a dominant trait based on the heritability pattern. It may also be codominant in that a single-copy mare has a larger heart than a non-carrier mare, but smaller than a double-copy mare heart. Don’t know what that means for stallions though, and I’m just throwing that out to add confusion to the melee. It’s just a theory. I’d be interested to hear about what you learn from the books.

Thanks Libby! I knew I could count on someone to have access to the research. I checked Del Mar but didn’t see him on there. How’d you find the info about the size of his heart?

I’ve got a stack of all these posts printed on my desk and I will go through and ferret out all the questions – but there is tons of great info on here – thanks guys!

Now, one thing I’m finding about the Del Mar site. Since the x-factor info was not inputted on the basis of horses that actually were actually tested, I’m not sure how the computer chooses which horses to highlight. I’m finding that some of the horses that appear in the books as carriers are highlighted, but as they descend through relatively unknown horses, the highlighting will disappear. This doesn’t make sense to me. Especially where you will sometimes see a double copy mare bred to a single copy stallion and the resulting offspring will be, at best, highlighted as single copy. Which really isn’t possible if the mares two x’s and the stallions one x all have the gene, the resultant female baby has to be double copy.

The fact that some horses were unraced and are not recognized names would not keep them from having the gene, but it does make me wonder if the Del Mar site uses some sort of performance criteria, or doesn’t have horses past a certain date listed.

I’ve been finding the factor in the pedigrees, and then tracing it forward as long as the connection remains through females and then guessing that there will be therefore, a possibility of the gene, rather than relying on Del Mar’s underlining.

As several people have noted that the only way to know for sure is to have the testing done. I know that ASC mentioned having a sonogram of her horse’s heart and I wondered if you’d mind sharing whether having it done was terribly expensive? Since my vets haven’t done it yet, they haven’t given me a guesstimate of cost. If I had a mare, or if I hadn’t gelded Buzzy, I’d do it in a heartbeat, but since checking the boys is just to backup my research, it will have to wait until I have a closer to zero balance

Libby

Libby – great info! This is a brand new concept for me. I knew that when Secretariat was autopsied it was found that the size of his heart was much larger than average. I also know (after prematurely being labled a dud in the sire department) that he became one of the top broodmare sires in modern history. Am I making too big of a leap here to assume the x-chromosome related “large heart” was a big contributing factor?

Im trying to study up on TB breeding, sporthorse breeding–do you have any recomendations for reading material?
PS who is Ben? It appears this is basic forum info and I wont be able to follow along unless I find out! thanks again!!klr

Boy, this is waaaay more fun than work

tle – Char has a chance to have the large heart gene in at least two places. You are right that if her sire has it, which it would appear that he does, since his mom is a probable double copy mare (again, there must be something I don’t understand about the way the Del Mar system lists the horses, because they show her as only a single copy mare, though she appears to be double to me) he’d pass it to his daughter.

Even more important though, is the War Admiral in the very bottom of her pedigree. She may very well carry the War Admiral heart. Which is a very good thing :slight_smile:

Also interesting is that she has Swaps, not in a position to pass the gene himself, but bred to a mare that probably has it. Therefore going back to War Admiral on the top as well. She also has Eight Thirty in a position to pass the gene, and according to Haun, “Eight Thirty is a name found frequently on the X chromosome line of large-hearted horses.” (XFactor 1, pg 143) There is probably more cool info on the bottom side if one keeps digging, but right in her first five generations just the horses in a position to pass the gene are pretty interesting. She also, as you no doubt know, does have Princequillo, Tom Fool (sire of Buckpasser) (twice), the aforementioned Swaps, and Turn To – which are just the names that jump off the page at me.

Again, I’m not an expert, and there is always some question about which genes are dominant and which are recessive and that controls what does and does not pass along.

Libby (whose little event prospect with the bowed tendon also is a Swaps descendant, and who has a number of the physical characteristics of the War Admiral heart – now, if we could just keep him from picking fights and getting any more hurt. Grrrrrr)

Belle is a Conn x TB. It looks as if her TB dam (French Letters, not shown in the delmar site, but by French Champagne, who does carry it, and out of Alligator Alley, whose dam carried at least a single copy) carries at least a single copy, and possibly (25%) a double copy. So Belle should have at least a 50% chance of a large heart.

Neat.

None of my others have a significant chance of having it.

Thanks Janet

I understand the x and y thing just not why they don’t show SECRETARIAT as having a big heart in War Secretary’s pedigree. They do show it when you pull up SECRETARIAT’s pedigree. I thought it would at least show it up until SECRETARIAT’s dam.
On the side, WS’s dam, Flack Flack is shown as having a big heart.

As is our confidence, so is our capacity.
~W. Hazlitt

Thanks Bensmom for your info on my mare. I’ve only bred her once, but her son is outstanding and if I can stand to let her out of work for a while I may breed her again next year.

Mountain Girl: I had a Stage Door Johnny grandson, he’s known as an excellent sporthorse bloodline. My gelding had a great mind (the world’s most laid back TB?) and some of the best feet you’ve ever seen on TB. Beautiful “daisy cutter” show hunter movement. I hunted him for several seasons (including galloping on rocks and gravel roads) and never had to shoe his back feet the whole time I had him. I sold to him to a friend who does hunt shows and events and loves him to bits, it’s a great home for life for him.

I looked up Emmy Moi and it shows that Stage Door Johnny does have the x-factor gene, so he would have definitely given that to his daughter. Emmy Moi’s dam may carry it as the granddam Bunny Grey carries it and both Bunny Grey’s sire and dam had it, making it possible that Bunny Grey had a double copy. Emmy Moi also goes back to Tudor Minstrel through Tudor Melody, a known sport horse line.

[This message was edited by Badger on May. 09, 2002 at 10:30 AM.]

I’m finally back in the office – Ben decided to colic and choke last night so it was off the to the clinic for us. <sigh> His large heart won’t do us any good if he chokes . . .

The following site has info from Marianna Haun’s research:

http://www.horsesonly.com/pursuits/articles.htm

A couple of her articles on the x-factor as it relates to QHs are on the site, as well as links to others. Though this one ties it mostly into the QH breed it has fabulous explanations of how it works.

The two books are:

The X Factor: What It Is & How to Find It: The Relationship Between Inherited Heart Size and Racing Performance (1)

and

Understanding the Power of the X Factor : Patterns of Heart Score and Performance (2)

I was abbreviating them x-factor 1 & 2 yesterday.

They are both available from several sources, including the publisher, The Russell Meerdink Company (www.horseinfo.com) and Amazon.

I’m going to print some of these pages and take a look at more pedigrees this afternoon

Thanks guys for making this such an interesting topic!

Libby

The gene is carried on the x chromosome. The stallion is xy and the mare is xx. If the stallion has the gene, it is never passed to his sons by him (he gives his sons his y) but is always passed to his daughters (he gives his daughters his x where the gene resides). If the dam carries a single copy of the gene, then it only appears on one of her x chromosomes. Since she has two x chromosomes and only passes one on to each foal, there is a 50% chance for each foal to get the x chromosome that carries the gene, and a 50% chance that she will pass on the x chromosome that does NOT carry the gene.

In this scenario, (stallion carries gene on his x and mare carries gene on only one of her two x chromosomes) then all resulting colts from this mating have a 50% chance of carrying the gene (won’t get if from sire but a 50/50 chance from dam) and all resulting fillies are guaranteed to carry the gene (because the sire will definitely give her his x that carries the gene) AND there is a 50/50 chance that the filly will be a double copy (depending on whether or not the dam passes on the x that has the gene or the x that does not).

If the resulting filly IS a double copy, then ALL her foals will get the gene (regardless of the stallion), and anytime a double copy dam is bred to a stallion with the gene, ALL resulting foals will get the gene and ALL resulting fillies will be double copies.

As far as the x-factor being highlighted in the Del Mar Pedigree site, they only highlight it if the horse was in a possition to possibly have carried it down to a queried horse. For example, if you look up my mare, Luminary Princess, she is not highlighted and neither are her dam or sire. BUT it shows that either dam or sire MIGHT have inherited the gene if passed on by the highlighted granddams, and so they MIGHT have passed the gene on to my mare. In fact, there are a bunch of horses in her pedigree that are not highlighted but have a 50% chance of carrying the gene: Miss Citation MAY have been a double copy, and even if only a single copy (she was at least that) then Proper Notice MAY have carried the gene (if Miss Citation WAS a double copy then Proper Notice DID carry the gene, then Duran’s single copy MAY have been a double copy then Alittlebitearly would definitely have carried then gene instead of MAY have carried the gene). Island Sultan MAY have it, Tuetra MAY have a double copy if she got Courtesy’s gene through Continue. In fact, my mare may not carry it at all, she may have one copy, or she may have a double copy. I can trace several routes that may have brought the gene down to her.

More thoughts: since the x chromosome is significantly bigger than the y, then actually the dam is passing on about 70% of the genetic material to colts (she gives the x and stallion gives the smaller y) and both dam and sire each give the same amount (through x chromosomes) to fillies. HOWEVER, the mare also gives a bit more physical components because it is her physical system, plasma, etc. that is supporting the foal and transferring through the placenta and coursing through the foal. There is an argument that if you trace the tail female line (the horses that appear on the bottom branch of the pedigree: dam, granddam, great granddam, etc.) that your filly carries some physical/blood/plasma that has been passed/shared all the way down through those generations of mares.

The tail male line (all the sires along the top branch of the pedigree) are the most important males in the pedigree because they all share the exact same Y chromosome. NONE of the other males in the entire pedigree ever pass a Y down to your horse. All those other Ys have “deadended” as they were not passed on in the pedigree: If you look, all the other Ys end somewhere as a mare appears in the pedigree and that sire line’s Y isn’t carried farther in the pedigree. It is the tail male who’s Y makes it all the way down to the resulting male foal.

Hope this is not too confusing! It’s early.

I haven’t had a chance to check out others pedigrees yet, but Fred, there are differences in the inheritability of the trait in two ways. The first is obviously, stallions can’t pass it to their sons, only to daughters. Mares can pass it to either sons or daughters. The other way it can differ depends on which x is dominant. Interestingly enough, I haven’t seen any statement about whether the trait is considered dominant or recessive. Rather, the discussion of which x is dominant seems to consider the dominant gene a roll of the dice, rather than stating say, “brown eyes are recessive and blue eyes are dominant.”

My trainer has an appendix QH who may have the trait == it appears that his mother may have passed the large heart to him, if she is in fact, a double copy mare. His full sister, however, is probably a double copy mare herself – possibility that she got it from mom, and she would have gotten it from dad. The sire of these horses was sadly put down several weeks ago, and I haven’t heard if they actually weighed his heart, but he is suspected to have it, and is mentioned in the second x-factor book. It would be interesting to see how large his heart actually was.

As someone noted way back, unfortunately the only way to know for sure is to test or by autopsy. I would love to know for sure, but I’ll chose the testing by ultrasound method, rather than the alternative!

Libby

Okay, it’s up on the Del Mar database.

http://www.dmtc.com/pedigree

Libby

Conversely, there are som case where the Delmar site shows the female offspring of a single copy sire and a single copy dam as a DOUBLE copy mare. That is possible (25% probability), but not assured. And in MOST cases it shows the female offspring of a single copy sire and a single copy dam as a single copy, as expected. Do they have some other evidence that those mares (e.g Milan Mill, out of single copy Virginia Water by single copy Princequillo) has a double copy?

I found those example when I looked at Singing Native.

Thanks! Bensmom, would you be willing to look up Luminary Princess and tell me if she should carry the single gene? 3 of her 4 great-grand-dams are underlined, and both of her grand-dams, so shouldn’t she have it too?

Hmmm – asking about Ben can get you a reallllllly loooooong post from me

Ben is basically, the light of my life He’s my 9 year old QH – he was a blown up barrel horse at 3, and I took one look at him on a dark, dank night in January, where all he did was back up in the roundpen and buck, and borrowed his meagre purchase price from my credit union. He’s turned out to be terrific I didn’t intend to make him an event horse, I was hoping some day to foxhunt, but he had other ideas He is a racing bred QH that was injured before he was 2 and never made it to the track. He has what appears to be a double copy mom – that’s what got me interested in this research in the beginning.

Now, on to your reading material question. I don’t know if I am the best person to answer this – Hollyn, you have any suggestions? I have learned what I’ve picked up from the reading I’ve done on a good many topics from the bios on Secretariat and Ruffian, to the bloodhorse’s 100 greatest TBs books. The x-factor books are good – I gave the link to the publisher on those farther back in the thread.

That is a great question though, and perhaps one we might want to ask over on the racing or sport horse breeding forum. I’ve just sort of absorbed a lot of this stuff from reading pedigrees and picking people’s brains, so I’m not sure of a good list of must reads. Surely someone else out there can help?

Libby

Can somebody explain how to get this information from the delmar site. I don’t get any red or blue underlining (except the blue underline that is part of the http link) even though I am looking at pedigrees that include Mahmoud and/or Princiquillo on the dams side.

I too find this extremely interesting and hope I can add something to the conversation. In going back to review our Riverdale’s pedigree (1991 gelding by In Fijar out of Al Madina) on Delmar, I see he carries all four of the heart lines on his dam’s side: Blue Larkspur, Mahmoud, War Admiral and Princequillo. (He actually has a double dose of Man O’ War – which I think is cool.)

In addition to this, I DO have sonograms of his heart. He was diagnosed with a heart murmur that required further exploration to determine it’s severity. All’s find there, but we will sonogram his heart again in a year or so, to be sure all’s well. I’ll ask them about the size of his heart then. (I did ask the first time, but the vet looked at me like I was crazy!) BTW, has there been any connection made between large hearts and heart murmurs?

He was a “successful” race horse, having earned about $50K in the five years he raced. He’s now 11 and proving himself as an event horse. He’s an all-around amazing athlete, if a bit distracted at times!

If you can add anything to my knowledge of his pedigree, specifically as it relates to x factor, I’d really appreciate it.

Thanks!

My goodness, this is getting fascinating! Just for fun I looked up my Tb broodmare-Little Grata (born in 1982) and she traces to War Admiral, Tom Fool, Turn-to, and Nasrullah-thus to Nearco.

Does anyone know anything about another Triple Crown winner named Omaha in her pedigree?

The funny thing is I bought her from a photo ad because I liked her movement. Apparently no one else was interested because she was 15. We’ve had two foals(fillies that we kept ) and she still goes fox hunting, jumps and basically runs eveyone into the ground at 20!

She won 92,000 on the track and retired sound and my vet and farrier keep telling me I’m wasting her by not breeding her to Tbs. I keep telling THEM I know nothing about their bloodlines and which would be good to cross her with. What would you all recommend for a good starting place? This book by Haun (first name?) is it titled Xfactor 1? I’d love to find it and use it, along with my own eye and common sense to find a stallion to cross with her hoping for an eventing prospect.

Thank you Badger, for researching Emmy’s pedigree and for sharing about your Stage Door Johnny grandson. It was as if you were describing Emmy! I am so crazy about her! She was a great brave bold eventer, but sadly, due to her racing career, is not sound enough to move up the levels. So, now we stick to hunters, and she does have great movement and jump for that. Give her a job to do, and her focus, smarts, and determination are awesome. I hope to breed another awesome sporthorse from her and hope it has the big heart that I think she has! Holly

from coastal Maine, where boatlovers rule, and horselovers ride.