Last Chance Corral

[Appsolute]

[QUOTE=Alagirl;8076294]
the point is, if they are rebred by foal heat, the client farms wouldn’t really get to use the teaser…unless of course the mare has just foaled when the call comes in…[/QUOTE]

Well, being as batches of foals, as young as FOUR DAYS OLD are being dumped on LLC…

and:

foal heat is the first heat cycle a mare goes through after foaling and a manager’s first opportunity to breed her. It typically occurs six to 12 days after foaling. Mares can ovulate as early as seven days and as late as two weeks post-foaling.

I think it is quite possible that these mares are being bred by the lessees.

Per the Paulick Report:

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/ray-s-paddock/nurse-mares-four-legged-mary-poppins-to-the-rescue/

These are quotes from a Nurse Mare farm owner:

Nurse mares are often bred back to teaser stallions on the breeding farm during their lease, and Roseberry said he prefers they be sent to stallions “with some color” to make the nurse mare foal more marketable as a riding horse.

You know, because color should be the top priority when breeding a horse.

Although they aren’t well-publicized players in the breeding industry, nurse mares are much-appreciated surrogates in a variety of situations. Most commonly they are brought in by Thoroughbred breeders…

Bill Roseberry, who manages Roseberry’s Nurse Mares in Central Kentucky, said he gets calls throughout the foaling season, although this year seems especially busy. He’s already sent 26 mares out to help struggling foals and has received an additional 60 or 70 calls requesting his mares. Roseberry keeps close to 100 mares on his farm, many of whom are Quarter Horses and Tennessee Walkers.

Thats a whole bunch of grade horses being produced every year - at just one farm.

And Roseberry goes on about how they try to find homes for the foals, and the ones that they don’t find homes for - go to a “a farm in Ohio” - That would be Last Chance Corral. I don’t know how I feel about a for profit business dumping their excess on a non profit, but there you go.

Honestly, I don’t care about the back story LLC is pitching. The REALITY is that they end up with a large quantity of VERY young foals - they are coming from somewhere! And they are most certainly a “by product” of an industry!

[Lady_Eboshi]

Expensive mare sadly dies. Foal is now in jeopardy and/or is a big job to raise on a bucket. ONE horse in peril, worst case is it’s euthanized in infancy without suffering.

Nope–instead mare dies, foal in peril, create a whole MARE whose very existence is predicated on permitting dead mares’ foals to nurse off her. She has no buyers otherwise, being a grade most likely unbroke. Now she has to produce a FOAL each year, also grade, always unwanted, so now we have THREE horses in jeopardy, nurse-mare’s foal is a throwaway NOW and she herself will be the first time they can’t get her pregnant or she decides not to accept an orphan. 98% probability of facing a short, brutish, nasty life being kicked around from Sugarcreek to New Holland to Richelieu, sans food or water.

Yeah, THAT’s a great idea all right . . . :uhoh: No one who supports this can possibly give a crap, really, about the horses.

[roseymare]

There are not that many nursemare farms though. The ones in Kentucky ship mares across the country.

[roseymare]

[QUOTE=Alagirl;8076294]
the point is, if they are rebred by foal heat, the client farms wouldn’t really get to use the teaser…unless of course the mare has just foaled when the call comes in…[/QUOTE]

I don’t think the nursemare farms breed everything back on foal heat. They wait and breed registered foals if they need to with their own stallions.

I still don’t understand what you mean. Won’t use the teaser for what? If it is in the contract that nurse made must be rebred, they rebreed her.

[BeeHoney]

It actually can be difficult to get a nurse mare. They often are shipped in from far away (unless you live in KY). And they aren’t cheap. Nurse mares are not just used for cases where the mare died. There are also mares that reject their foals.

Nurse mares are bred back like any other mare. Cycles are tracked with teasing, etc. I’m sure that most farms start working on getting them back in foal as soon as they arrive because if they are returned not in foal the nurse mare farm charges extra.

I agree that more farms should try to raise their own orphans as bucket babies, but many TB farms are just not set up to do that. It’s easy to say “just hire more staff” but speaking as someone who has raised bucket babies I would say it is a skill that is somewhat separate from raising regular mares and foals. I’m not sure it is a task you could delegate with success to a wide range of farm workers. Also, foals require some kind of equine companionship and most TB farms do not have quiet old ponies or another orphan the same age. This is a big sticking point for many farms–even if you had the staff you cannot successfully raise a single bucket baby without a suitable companion. Either way, using nurse mares is the industry standard.

I agree that some nurse mares are not ideal sport/riding horse specimens because they are chosen for their patient and non-aggressive temperament above all, not their suitability for sport. However, many farms use NICE stallions as teasers. I know farms with lovely paint, QH and Welsh pony stallions that are nice breeding stallions in their own right as well as being used as teasers.

[Alagirl]

[QUOTE=Appsolute;8076329]
Well, being as batches of foals, as young as FOUR DAYS OLD are being dumped on LLC…

and:

foal heat is the first heat cycle a mare goes through after foaling and a manager’s first opportunity to breed her. It typically occurs six to 12 days after foaling. Mares can ovulate as early as seven days and as late as two weeks post-foaling.

I think it is quite possible that these mares are being bred by the lessees.

Per the Paulick Report:

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/ray-s-paddock/nurse-mares-four-legged-mary-poppins-to-the-rescue/

These are quotes from a Nurse Mare farm owner:

You know, because color should be the top priority when breeding a horse.

Thats a whole bunch of grade horses being produced every year - at just one farm.

And Roseberry goes on about how they try to find homes for the foals, and the ones that they don’t find homes for - go to a “a farm in Ohio” - That would be Last Chance Corral. I don’t know how I feel about a for profit business dumping their excess on a non profit, but there you go.

Honestly, I don’t care about the back story LLC is pitching. The REALITY is that they end up with a large quantity of VERY young foals - they are coming from somewhere! And they are most certainly a “by product” of an industry! [/QUOTE]

why the bolding?

[Lynnwood]

[QUOTE=JoZ;8076179]
It is not about the bottom line in the way that Last Chance Corral would have you believe. They spread lies and hyperbole about the PMU industry and when that dried up they switched to nursemare operations. Of course every foal needing a home is a poignant thing. But why does it require all of the lies? The top choice of all breeders is to leave their foal, regardless of its value, with its own mother. Thoroughbred mares are NOT, as a rule, separated from their babies to be re-bred (nor is it abusive to rebreed a mare consecutive years, but that’s a side dig they get in). Nursemares are used in dire situations – foal rejection, or death/incapacitation of mare.[/QUOTE]

This is spot on. My biggest complaint against LLC is that they do not disclose their source supposedly its one farm/provider and considering the age and shape they receive some of the foals in. I think if their efforts were truly to stop negative practices in the nurse mare industry then exposing the farms that are guilty of them makes much more long term sense then continuing to provide that farm with income / a respite situation for their unwanted foals.

LLC throws shade at the TB industry while begging for money for foals they are paying lord knows who for. Did I mention how much I dislike rescue narratives…

[BeeHoney]

Actually, Lynnwood, if Last Chance Corral were to expose the farms that give them the foals, I think that what would happen is those farms would stop sending foals to LCC–or to any other suitable organization. That would definitely not be a positive step for the animals involved.

[CaitlinandTheBay]

[QUOTE=BeeHoney;8076831]
Actually, Lynnwood, if Last Chance Corral were to expose the farms that give them the foals, I think that what would happen is those farms would stop sending foals to LCC–or to any other suitable organization. That would definitely not be a positive step for the animals involved.[/QUOTE]
Are the foals given or purchased?

[Withstand]

I would assume given, the foals aren’t pricy that they’re selling ($150-300 ish)

[Lynnwood]

[QUOTE=BeeHoney;8076831]
Actually, Lynnwood, if Last Chance Corral were to expose the farms that give them the foals, I think that what would happen is those farms would stop sending foals to LCC–or to any other suitable organization. That would definitely not be a positive step for the animals involved.[/QUOTE]

If the farm is guilty of negative husbandry practices / abusive practices as LLC insinuates regularly then I would think exposing them is just the ticket. Yes it would mean that some foals may not survive in the short term but if what LLC is saying is true and the abuses legitimate it would cast some sunshine in the farms dark corners and perhaps through public pressure force them into better practices or closure.

How its being handled currently LLC is paying for foals and there for rewarding the farm for its negative practices.

[Lynnwood]

Last I understood the foals are purchased from the NM supplier. What is paid for them or if that is still how its handled I have no idea.

[BeeHoney]

Where does Last Chance Corral insinuate anything negative about the nurse mare farms? I didn’t see anything negative about the farms on their website, and I haven’t seen anything like that posted on FB, though I could have missed it.

What are you looking to “expose” exactly? It isn’t illegal to raise a bunch of respectably cared for broodmares, lease them as nurse mares, and see to it that the foals are privately sold into appropriate homes or funneled into a situation like Last Chance Corral where they have an excellent chance of going to pre-screened adoptive homes. The farm that I know of that is a nightmare is a nightmare by any animal welfare standard–a bunch of skinny, poorly cared for mares, mudpit paddocks, and no evidence of bucket babies. The other farm I have personal knowledge of was a simple operation but with well fed, healthy and happy appearing horses and a well cared for group of bucket babies.

I’m not a fan of the industry, but I don’t think that attacking the nurse mare farms would have quite the effect you want. I think it would highly discourage nurse mare farms from seeking homes for their foals. You might put one farm out of business through harassment but I’m pretty sure another–and perhaps one not so well run, and one more careful to stay out of the public eye–would pop up in is place.

IMO, if you think the nurse mare industry should not be allowed to exist, then you should work towards legislation to regulate or stop it.

[Beckham03]

I don’t blame the TB industry, there are many breeds that use the nurse mares. A friend of mine worked at a large Standardbred farm and they needed a nurse mare once. This farm didn’t have teasers, so the mare was bred to an expenive stallion…not that anyone one really knew or that people were looking for a Standardbred cross.

I have visited LCC and they do an amazing job…these suckers are a lot of work. I am amazed by all the odd comments on those FB posts. I know of several foals that have gone on to be successful riding horses.

I am off to hook up the trailer and take my now 4 yr old nurse mare foal to his first dressage show, in the cold, lol.
I am av

[Lynnwood]

[QUOTE=BeeHoney;8076895]
Where does Last Chance Corral insinuate anything negative about the nurse mare farms? I didn’t see anything negative about the farms on their website, and I haven’t seen anything like that posted on FB, though I could have missed it.

What are you looking to “expose” exactly? It isn’t illegal to raise a bunch of respectably cared for broodmares, lease them as nurse mares, and see to it that the foals are privately sold into appropriate homes or funneled into a situation like Last Chance Corral where they have an excellent chance of going to pre-screened adoptive homes. The farm that I know of that is a nightmare is a nightmare by any animal welfare standard–a bunch of skinny, poorly cared for mares, mudpit paddocks, and no evidence of bucket babies. The other farm I have personal knowledge of was a simple operation but with well fed, healthy and happy appearing horses and a well cared for group of bucket babies.

I’m not a fan of the industry, but I don’t think that attacking the nurse mare farms would have quite the effect you want. I think it would highly discourage nurse mare farms from seeking homes for their foals. You might put one farm out of business through harassment but I’m pretty sure another–and perhaps one not so well run, and one more careful to stay out of the public eye–would pop up in is place.

IMO, if you think the nurse mare industry should not be allowed to exist, then you should work towards legislation to regulate or stop it.[/QUOTE]

isnt it LLC that is pushing a kickstarter for their documentary titled “BORN TO DIE”

I personally don’t have a problem with the NM industry as long as it is regulated and the bi product foals are treated humanly and are either placed with organizations like LLLC , re homed or euthanizes immediately. Where I take offense is the barage of miss information / embellished nature of the business.

If LLC wants to rescuer nurse mare foals … GREAT ! If they can’t do it without taking pot shots at the Thoroughbed industry or publishing / claiming blatant misinformation then … Not so great.

If LLC CLAIMS the foals are in terrible shape when the get them , accuses the farm of being capable of all manner of atrocity then I feel rather then begging for donations they should be exposing that farm ( unless what they are saying is more embellishment then truth) , in which case they should do what they are good at , take in foals care for them and place them without all the narrative embellishment

[Lynnwood]

Link to the documentary page. http://borntodie.org

very first lines "born so the Thoroughbred moms can go be rebred " which MANY people who work in the race industry at significant farms have said is simply not true.

Llc does does great work … Id just like to see the information they put out be more truth less narrative. Id happily back then 150% if that were the case.

[Alagirl]

[QUOTE=Lynnwood;8077066]
Link to the documentary page. http://borntodie.org

very first lines "born so their Thoroughbred moms can go be rebred " which MANY people who work in the race industry at significant farms have said is simply not true.

Llc does does great work … Id just like to see the information they put out be more truth less narrative. Id happily back then 150% if that were the case.[/QUOTE]

well, the url title is off-putting to start with!
The narrative sucks.

And of course the drama is over the top.

There is a farm somewhere, I think Virginia, not sure, they rase bucket babies.
nothing but bucket babies.

They don’t sell drama, even the farm doesn’t have a fancy name (something like ‘Just Another Farm’…)

raising babies isn’t easy, raising them without mom is difficult!

I suppose some nurse mare farms suck, goes with human nature, but I wonder what farms work with them, under that narrative: Oh, sure, bad mouth us, but take our babies…

of course, it’s a slide to the TB industry - they are the evil people - when they deal in the nurse mare babies…

Need more coffee to figure that one out!

[BeeHoney]

Thanks for the link, Lynnwood. Yes, that is a huge piece of misinformation that the nurse mares are used so that mares can be re-bred! I’ve simply never heard of that happening. First of all, switching a foal over to a nurse mare is risky and imperfect and still requires a lot of supervision and work and there are no guarantees. It’s not at all like you just put the nurse mare with a different foal and voila! Secondly, nurse mares are expensive (as is the extra work I just mentioned). Thirdly, most horse people (including thoroughbred farm managers!) are well aware that using nurse mares is not without consequences for that mare’s own foal. Fourthly, there is nothing about re-breeding a mare that requires you to separate her from her foal. Mares are bred via transported semen, or in the TB world mares are shipped to and boarded near the location where they are to be rebred either before foaling or after foaling (with the foal). Mares and foals typically travel just fine, even long distances. Breeding farms are set up to handle foals at side while mares are being re-bred. The mare and foal might be separated for a couple hours while the mare travels to the breeding shed for a live cover breeding, but that’s about it.

Still, my impression is that Last Chance Corral does a really excellent job. Their foals look well cared for, their adoption requirements are well thought out, etc.

[Frostbitten]

I must admit, I am still thoroughly confused and having a hard time getting an overall picture of exactly how large nurse mare usage is and what it really means for mares and babies. The gamut seems to run from well-adjusted baby-bottle adult horses in wonderful homes to discarded babies used as zoo meat. There are all sorts of chunks of information but it still doesn’t begin to make a coherent overall picture.

[Lynnwood]

[QUOTE=BeeHoney;8077459]

Still, my impression is that Last Chance Corral does a really excellent job. Their foals look well cared for, their adoption requirements are well thought out, etc.[/QUOTE]

You are right the work they do is excellent. The drama and embellished misinformation is disappointing