Lawsuit in Florida - alleged fraud in sale of Fabrege - Case settled - post #340

[MysticOakRanch]

@trubandloki

This post would work in every horse industry, not just dressage.

That is exactly what I meant!

[suzy]

As far as the price of the horse, it’s like any other commodity–it’s worth as much as someone is willing to pay for it. Comparing the price of Valegro to the price of Fabrege is a classic case of comparing apples to oranges. He was young and green and being purchased by a pro to develop. Fabrege was several years older with a good show record and being purchased by an amateur.

[Pennywell_Bay]

I agree it happens in every discipline.

1. as to Value- the horse is worth what someone will pay for it
2. The owner thought it was worth 500 K, offered 300 K- maybe she just wanted it off her bill. No judgement here.
3. I found out years after the fact that our trainer at the time had doubled the price of the horse my dad bought me (this was 30 some years ago). I think he paid 10 K and I crossed paths years later and found out the horse was for sale for 5 K. He was worth every penny of the 10 K but it doesn’t negate the fact it was shady. We certainly don’t begrudge people making a sale- but be honest.
4. Buyer beware. Personally- I wouldn’t go blindly into a buy, and my trainer knows this up front. Though I don’t have any reason to currently doubt his integrity- I also don’t leave it to chance to test it.

[csaper58]

@MysticOakRanch

There are a lot of honest people in this industry, but a few bad ones give us all a bad name! Seems like the more MONEY involved, or the more horses they turn over, the worse the ethics are. But I know a lot of small breeders, and several trainers who are totally open and honest about the horses they are selling. Please don’t paint everyone with the same broad brush.

@csaper58

I have never underestimated the potential for dishonest behavior in matters of horsetrading

I said “the potential”, not the certainty. There is a difference.

[SnicklefritzG]

But she would know better how to protect herself than the average rich horse person

@TequilaMockingbird

None of us know the nature of the relationship between Alice Tarjan and Caroline Roffman. For all you know, Alice thought Caroline was a close friend. And if that were the case, Caroline may have very well acted like a close friend would (calls just to chit chat, birthday gifts, dinners etc) to make Alice feel like a friend. The best scam artists know how to get their marks to trust them. She clearly thought Caroline was doing everything in her best interest because she took her advice regarding to $300k sales price.

Just look at how many people are defending Caroline right out of the gate, as if it’s absolutely impossible for someone as perfect as Caroline to ever do such a thing. There are some people who will refuse to believe it, regardless of the outcome in court, short of Caroline Roffman privately admitting it to them.

She had sold other horses for Alice and lots of other very high end clients so she likely has a good reputation outside of this incident. Also the fact that she is so high profile, you might assume that someone who is that wealthy and with that kind of visibility would never do something that underhanded because the risk of ruining her reputation wouldn’t be worth it. Imagine if this were Akiko and Steffen.

It’s the same reason so many people got taken by Bernie Madoff. Being an attorney doesn’t mean you’re not human.

[atr]

The thing that keeps popping up in my mind is how can any horse with “sub par” changes and canter be considered worth “even” $300K?

In the real world, that’s a second or maybe third level limited horse that is worth absolute tops $30K, if it’s really nicely bred and safe as houses.

I really do live on a different planet.

[joiedevie99]

@atr sub-par is a relative standard. Sub-par for an international GP horse might still earn 7.5’s. Or sub-par might just mean that the canter requires more micro-managing/better riding than would be ideal. Or sub-par might mean behind in development relative to the other gaits, or behind relative to the level required in the relevant young horse test.

[honeylips]

BP and EO are in a “relationship”. Were at the time of this purchase - still are. BP inherited a lot of money - this is not that much for her. The horse is fine and still at BP farm and training. BP sold her farm in 2014 for 23 million dollars in Wellington.

[SnicklefritzG]

Exactly! In the era, if you want to win gold at WEG or the Olympics you can’t get by with 7.5s

[csaper58]

@atr

The thing that keeps popping up in my mind is how can any horse with “sub par” changes and canter be considered worth “even” $300K?

In the real world, that’s a second or maybe third level limited horse that is worth absolute tops $30K, if it’s really nicely bred and safe as houses.

I really do live on a different planet.

The canter and tempi issues [if truly present] could have been the result of not being given time to rest or a mild illness after a long trailer ride from the northeast down to Florida.

The horse was sold within 15 days of landing in Florida, no telling how many people tried riding her.

[csaper58]

@honeylips

BP and EO are in a “relationship”. Were at the time of this purchase - still are. BP inherited a lot of money - this is not that much for her. The horse is fine and still at BP farm and training. BP sold her farm in 2014 for 23 million dollars in Wellington.

Glad the horse is in a good place, and well cared for!

[Mardi]

@TequilaMockingbird

She had sold other horses for Alice and lots of other very high end clients so she likely has a good reputation outside of this incident.

Maybe with some folks, but certainly not with everyone who bought horses from her program.
As some people are defending her, others are not surprised.

[Crockpot]

not defending anyone but allegations are just that- allegations-

hope that all the facts come out and if anyone is doing dirty dealing they get nailed!!.

but people here are jumping to conclusions -

seems if anyone alleges something it must be true I guess

so now i will be accused of defending someone- NO- not at all

Call me old fashioned but I just like to see due process to play out .

[vineyridge]

Is Caroline Roffman the girl/woman from a mega, mega billionaire rich family whose family made it clear they were not going to support a career as a horse professional? If not, who am I trying to remember?

[Mardi]

@Crockpot

not defending anyone but allegations are just that- allegations-

:

Sorry, I didn’t mean to infer that you were defending her. Someone posted that people were defending CR.

[vineyridge]

The fact that the horse sold so quickly for so little money (with training holes) is odd, to say the least, because the contract provided that Ms. Tarjan would pay Ms. Roffman $2500 per month for board and training until the horse was sold.

I don’t know what BN dressage trainers get for training board, but that seems high enough that CR would have been willing to put extra training in to get a better price. And if she thought the horse was so lacking that it wouldn’t have benefited from extra training, how did she manage to get it sold for $890k?

[BigMama1]

@vineyridge

The fact that the horse sold so quickly for so little money (with training holes) is odd, to say the least, because the contract provided that Ms. Tarjan would pay Ms. Roffman $2500 per month for board and training until the horse was sold.

I don’t know what BN dressage trainers get for training board, but that seems high enough that CR would have been willing to put extra training in to get a better price. And if she thought the horse was so lacking that it wouldn’t have benefited from extra training, how did she manage to get it sold for $890k?

$2500 for full training board in Wellington is not a high price, and quite a bargain for a BNT

[roseymare]

A had a friend that was told he wouldn’t ever make it in the horse business because he wouldn’t sell a horse for twice what the owner was asking and pocket the extra without telling the owner. This was 30 years ago. Now there are cases where someone flat out tells you I want X and you keep what you can get over that as your commission. Then there are the ones taking a commission from both buyer and selling ie double dipping. It is all out there and not what I would call rare in any aspect of the horses. The more expensive the horse the bigger the game.

[joiedevie99]

@BigMama1

$2500 for full training board in Wellington is not a high price, and quite a bargain for a BNT

Ditto! $2500 for full training in Wellington is definitely a bargain.

[yaya]

@vineyridge

Is Caroline Roffman the girl/woman from a mega, mega billionaire rich family whose family made it clear they were not going to support a career as a horse professional? If not, who am I trying to remember?

Yes. Here’s the article: http://dressage-news.com/2014/01/23/caroline-roffman-starts-her-highness-in-first-cdi-at-global-dessage-festival/

Interesting quote, “I live from commission check to commission check”, considering this lawsuit.