Lawsuit in Florida - alleged fraud in sale of Fabrege - Case settled - post #340

[SnicklefritzG]

At least in dressage you can compete against yourself to improve scores and get various achievement awards and certificates

[skydy]

@vineyridge

One thing I noticed when reading the complaint that will have to be filled out with discovery is there is no dating for the transaction to the Peslar entities.

Didn’t Ben Maher (show jumper) do something quite similar last year?

From 2014 http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/…awsuit-settled.

[Pennywell_Bay]

@mvp

Yes, but you are missing a couple of points.

1. This is a sport and a hobby. It is entirely made up. There is no rule out there that says the “halo effect of money” that rules in, say, the economic or college admissions world needs to be allowed to enter this one. I challenge you to find a logical or metaphysical reason that this must be so.

2. Competitive sport is only worthwhile when the field is, in fact, relatively level. That’s why, for example, no one wants to watch a boxing match where one guy has already accepted payment to take a fall; no one wants to watch the effects of steriods compete in the Tour de France, rather than un-drugged people; and it’s pretty boring with the outcome of a horse show class was determined years earlier by the size of the purchase checks of the horses.

3. If you look at the history of college admissions, no one has said, “Meh… let’s continue to discriminate against the poor (or female or non-white).” On the contrary, universities have appreciated that intelligence does not correlate entirely with wealth, whiteness and peeing standing up. And so they have created need-blind admissions, affirmative action policies and recruiting strategies at places like Indian Reservations and poor parts of inner cities meant to attract unlikely candidates who would thrive with a college education.

My point is that those who wish to work around that “economic halo effect” precisely because they know that intelligence, rather than privilege, is the characteristic they are after have made an attempt to combat the confounding effects of wealth. And so you’ll need a very different example than the one offered by higher education if you want to say that the hobby sport of dressage just needs to submit to the general problem of wealth being the best predictor of success on horseback. It absolutely can go otherwise. But first we have to be honest and not complacent about it.

I’m rolling my eyes. Seriously- if you don’t like the college analogy- use any other one that MVP sees fit.

Horses are a luxury, horse showing even more so. So yes, generally someone with money is going to have access to better horses, more lessons, show more, show at better places- thus in the competition world be more “successful” if that is ones definition. What is so difficult to understand about that? Raw talent propelling people to “the top” is a rarity, usually funded by------------------ people with money.

Complacent? Shakes head. . It is life. Success defined as competition- you need money or some form of backing.

I’m off of the dressage forum because good lord- I just can’t today.

[mvp]

@Pennywell Bay

I’m rolling my eyes. Seriously- if you don’t like the college analogy- use any other one that MVP sees fit.

Horses are a luxury, horse showing even more so. So yes, generally someone with money is going to have access to better horses, more lessons, show more, show at better places- thus in the competition world be more “successful” if that is ones definition. What is so difficult to understand about that? Raw talent propelling people to “the top” is a rarity, usually funded by------------------ people with money.

Complacent? Shakes head. . It is life. Success defined as competition- you need money or some form of backing.

I’m off of the dressage forum because good lord- I just can’t today.

I can’t believe you’d roll your eyes at someone making an argument for a level playing field in a sport. But if that pissed you off and you want to leave in a huff… then Go With God. I don’t know what else to offer you. The two of us just have very different value systems, that’s all.

[ToN_Farm]

@mvp

I can’t believe you’d roll your eyes at someone making an argument for a level playing field in a sport. But if that pissed you off and you want to leave in a huff… then Go With God. I don’t know what else to offer you. The two of us just have very different value systems, that’s all.

I for one didn’t get your point. Maybe Pennywell didn’t either. I read your post three times and still wasn’t sure what your view is. It seems like you are saying that you do not need money for sport, and all you need is talent.

[trubandloki]

I am confused, is there a ‘level playing field’ in any sport?
Some people are just more talented than others. No way to regulate that away.

[CRTXLaw]

This is essentially the service we offer at www.equineexchange.com - horse transactions are standardized, professional and easy - while minimizing risk for all. You get a closing package that includes all files relating to the horse (photos, videos, vet records, x rays, competition records, pedigree, etc.), and all of the legal contracts relating to the transaction (Agency Agreement, Horse Profile (seller’s disclosure document), Trial Agreement, Purchase Agreement and Bill of Sale). The closing package can be accessed on our site any time in the future. We do not offer title insurance, but the contracts address passage of title and encumbances on title, etc. so those risks are clearly allocated.

@WildandWickedWarmbloods

I’m all for having a “closing” for the sale of horses, with a contract, owner present, buyer present, agents present, etc. And the option to buy “title insurance” on the horses. This would solve some problems.

[ToN_Farm]

CRTXLaw, the trainers I know would not go for that contract.

[BigMama1]

@Mardi

However…she apparently had successful sales through CR in the past, and would have no reason to believe that this sale would be atypical. And that brings up another question: why did CR make THIS sale different ? Why now ?

Good question! I’m wondering more why people are using this forum to critique AT rather than the people it seem conspired to defraud her

[BigMama1]

@SnicklefritzG

At least in dressage you can compete against yourself to improve scores and get various achievement awards and certificates

THIS.
All the angst about people who have more money, nicer horses and better trainers is silly IMO. There is no way to truly level the playing field and that’s just life. And it doesn’t affect your own scores one little bit. Placings in a class, sure, but aren’t they kind of meaningless? You can’t control how well or badly OTHER people ride on a given day, or how amazing their horses’ gaits are, which are the biggest factors in dertmining placings. I’ve won classes with a fairly crappy ride, just because everyone else that day had crappier tests than I did. I’ve had the ride of my life and came only fourth, because others were better than me that day.

Ride your own horse, improve your own scores and stop worrying about what everyone else does or has. There will always be people with nicer / better / fancier horses than you, and your horse will always be nicer / better / fancier than someone else’s.

It’s only relevant if you want to compete at international levels, make a team etc. And sorry, at that level you need to have the best horse, training, coaching, etc. You don’t see people trying to compete in F1 racing in a Toyota Corolla, do you?

[BigMama1]

@mvp

I can’t believe you’d roll your eyes at someone making an argument for a level playing field in a sport. But if that pissed you off and you want to leave in a huff… then Go With God. I don’t know what else to offer you. The two of us just have very different value systems, that’s all.

I usually agree with you but not here. The examples of people taking a fall or using steroids in Sport are examples of CHEATING. Simply having the resources to access the best horses and training is in no way cheating, sorry. They simply aren’t equivalent.

[exploding_pony]

I’m confused - the woman should not compete as an AA because she’s good? And because she brings along horses (which everyone complains about, right? That no one is ever training horses up the levels) she should be a pro?

I’m sorry, but that doesn’t make any sense at all. I don’t know the woman, but she can obviously ride. Why the sour grapes?

[Manahmanah]

@exploding pony

I’m confused - the woman should not compete as an AA because she’s good? And because she brings along horses (which everyone complains about, right? That no one is ever training horses up the levels) she should be a pro?

I’m sorry, but that doesn’t make any sense at all. I don’t know the woman, but she can obviously ride. Why the sour grapes?

Jealousy obviously.

it’s really quite ugly

[Manni01]

I don’t care whether she is good… But obviously she earns enough with selling horses to make a living… Somebody who make his living with horses is a professional Horseperson for me… And don’t give me the argument with the AA who sells his horse for what ever reasons… The AA is selling 1 or maybe 2 horses in some years and can certainly not make a living from it. She seems to sell horses every year…

[Manahmanah]

@Manni01

I don’t care whether she is good… But obviously she earns enough with selling horses to make a living… Somebody who make his living with horses is a professional Horseperson for me… And don’t give me the argument with the AA who sells his horse for what ever reasons… The AA is selling 1 or maybe 2 horses in some years and can certainly not make a living from it. She seems to sell horses every year…

You talk smack enough for it to be a full time job, I guess that makes you an author.

[Manni01]

@Manahmanah

You talk smack enough for it to be a full time job, I guess that makes you an author.

ok you want me to report you?? seems pretty personal to me…
@Moderator 1 1 I think telling me that I talk smack is pretty insulting… what about the board rules…

[Dutchmare433]

@Manahmanah

Jealousy obviously.

it’s really quite ugly

Ditto this, if she was rich and a bad rider, no one would complain, if she was poor and an awesome rider, no one would complain. She follows the rules as they are written. Many people here seem to be complaining about the division between AAs and Pros, such as it is now, but you don’t see them giving up their ammy status.

[BigMama1]

@Manni01

I don’t care whether she is good… But obviously she earns enough with selling horses to make a living… Somebody who make his living with horses is a professional Horseperson for me… And don’t give me the argument with the AA who sells his horse for what ever reasons… The AA is selling 1 or maybe 2 horses in some years and can certainly not make a living from it. She seems to sell horses every year…

How do you know she makes her living selling horses and doesn’t have other income sources? This seems pretty unlikely to me, especially as being a lawyer isn’t exactly a part time job

[Manni01]

@BigMama1

How do you know she makes her living selling horses and doesn’t have other income sources? This seems pretty unlikely to me, especially as being a lawyer isn’t exactly a part time job

if you sell horses in the price range of 300000-500000, that seems like a livable income… I guess one or 2 per year should do it…

I know somebody in Germany who was making quite a bit of money by selling horses and declared it as a hobby because he had a good income from his job. But the German IRS declared him a professional horse trader taxwise. I am sure its different here though…

And if you consider that you have to turn pro when you earn more then a couple of 100 bucks when giving lessons, I think this is kind of interesting to compare… And also you have to turn pro for giving lessons even if you have another source of income… So thats not an argument

[BigMama1]

@Manni01

if you sell horses in the price range of 300000-500000, that seems like a livable income… I guess one or 2 per year should do it…

I know somebody in Germany who was making quite a bit of money by selling horses and declared it as a hobby because he had a good income from his job. But the German IRS declared him a professional horse trader taxwise. I am sure its different here though…

And if you consider that you have to turn pro when you earn more then a couple of 100 bucks when giving lessons, I think this is kind of interesting to compare… And also you have to turn pro for giving lessons even if you have another source of income… So thats not an argument

I guess it all depends how much you paid for the horse in the first place and how much you invest in board, training, etc. But it’s still no different than the many amateurs I know who buy and flip horses. The only difference is the price range and the rules in the US don’t specify anything about that.

Whether you you should have to turn pro for teaching a couple of up/down lessons a week is an entirely different discussion. A good one - but not really relevant here.