Maybe I am very very stupid… but If I look up the USEF registration for Serenade MF I find the breeder also registered as the owner… At least 5 min ago… But I am sure there is some more information which I don’t have… Eurodressage says it different… I don’t know I was assuming USEF is kind of correct
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I agree with you!!! And in the Young horses it doesn’t matter at all because it is not divided and I assume she would beat the pros in the dressage classes as well. The only thing which really bothers me is that if she is riding horses for other owners I think thats somehow not how I understand the rules. . But i guess I misunderstood this, because these are her horses and only the ownership was never transferred with USEF
Maybe this should be a separate thread but as an aside:
Make it all open- give up the idea of trying to make a level playing field for everyone in dressage- not possible.
There is no level playing field in life anyway.
This should be a no brainer in dressage where you are scored agst a standard
and where plenty of AAs can afford better horses ans trainers than others
get over it.
make it all open
compete agst yourself
Bonus- you dont stop hard working people from making a few bucks teaching
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Yeah Crockpot I wouldn’t have an issue with that. Isn’t that how it is in Europe?
Anyway my whole point from the beginning was that Alice Targan is not your normal amateur who bought the horse that their trainer recommended or the best horse they could afford and then put money in their horse like it was a money pit never to be seen again. She is a very savvy horse person with an excellent eye who is capable of bringing horses up the levels and doing a good job at it. She is much better at this than many trainers. She is not the average amateur who got ripped off by a big name trainer. I am not saying that she did not get ripped off or that her lawsuit is unfounded. I have no idea about that. I just know that this was an investment horse to her and she stood to make a lot of money. She has made money on several horses which again is something a lot of people even those who do this “professionally” can’t say. I think that the rules in the US favor people with money over the ones with raw talent who are poor. I think the sport on that whole would be better served if it better favored those with a lot of talent and not so much cash, but I am not whining about it. That is what it is and it doesn’t negatively affect me because I am neither super talented nor poor.
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Is typing really so inefficent that you need to shortain “against” to “agst” so as to make yourself maximally difficult to understand?
I mean really.
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rolly eyes
what do “shortain” and “inefficent” mean-
having maximal difficulty understanding!
:rolleyes:
I mean Really!
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You know-
when someone posts solely to criticize you for using "agst " instead of “against” and pretends that it is therefore difficult for her to understand your post -
and says nothing about content -
that it must be some sort of personal issue -
which I do not recall…
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It has long been established that as AA can certainly sell horses and remain an amateur. They must OWN the horse themselves. So someone making a profit on horses they own is legal.
Sometimes registrations fail to get changed, are overlooked, the USEF actually made a mistake on one of mine.
It may be hard to take that someone who rides well, has money, can sell her horses still competes as an ammy. But she does, and apparently she can. If someone can prove otherwise- there are channels in which to challenge her status.
Generally- the WORLD favors people with money. GAH I am so sick of hearing this whine about it being unfair people with money have better options…DUH- guess what- they have better options for college etc etc etc. The list goes on and on. This is something people have to get over, someone is always going to have more money, better horses, better tack than someone else. It is easier to compete if you have money, have access to good trainers and a facility that can propel and average person into a better rider, or maybe just have a nice enough horse.
The fact she is “not your average ammy” doesn’t mean she should be taken advantage of, if the allegations are correct.
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Like I said- it was really a side issue which likely deserves a different thread.
I was definitely not commenting on this individual- so yes- should be a separate topic
Ok I admit I looked up the owner and it is kind of disappointing to find out that a system, which charges a lot of money and requires double registering is not even accurate… I wonder how useful it is if its not accurate… But ok, now I know…never trust any information found at USDF or USEF…
And the rest of your post. I don’t like the split in AA and Pros… I think its created mainly in order to protect rich AAs. It does not reflect quality of riding and unfortunately it also makes life for people who are not rich harder… AT is IMO an amazing rider and a very smart person. She is able to work the system how she likes it… Good for her… But still for me she is not a role model of an AA.
A friend of mine who recently moved, rode in a very big class of AA and placed extremely well. She was amazed how she was treated by the other riders in her class. Because nobody knew her everybody was shocked how well she placed and ignored her. Obviously she took something away from others which they thought belonged to them… Because they were rich AAs… And all these discussions who is an AA and who is not… Thats what this system creates… Greed and hostility towards people who are suspected to break the rules…
I would really prefer a system based on riding ability and not on money… In our schooling shows we have no separation of AA and Pro. I like that so much better…
But I know its a very unpopular opinion and nothing is going to change just my opinion
hi everyone - I haven’t followed this entire thread and I don’t mean to derail the conversation, but thought you all may be interested to know that there is a simple way to protect yourself from fraud in horse sales - www.equineexchange.com (I am an attorney and one of the co-founders). Fraudulent horse sales and hidden commissions are extremely common. After witnessing the same scenarios play out time and again - misrepresented horses, hidden commissions, huge financial losses and broken dreams, etc. - , my partner and I created an online horse sales platform that’s like the title company in real estate - it ensures you know where you’re money is going and that every detail is covered and documented. Buying a horse is a huge emotional and financial commitment - in this way it is an investment and should be entered into carefully and well-documented. I would be happy to answer any questions you may have - feel free to message me.
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I submit that your argument is crazy, because allowing amateurs to sell horses for a profit is about the only way that a talented and poor amateur can afford this sport.
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It is kind of a head scratcher… That would mean there would be no Ammy division at all if selling a horse for profit means you can no longer be an Ammy. Think about it. You buy Dobbin, you ride Dobbin for a few years and Dobbin gets more trained (even if it is your trainer doing the miles). Now it is time to move to a fancier horse so time to sell Dobbin. Dobbin’s value increased because of the years of miles so you make a profit. Oh no. Now you have to be a pro?
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I agree that simply selling a horse for a profit (as in more than you paid for it) should not in and of itself eliminate competing as an Amateur. I think most of us hope to sell any horse that is still in their working prime for more than what we paid for it. That really has nothing to do with being a professional and, really, nothing to do with how good of a rider you are. That’s what trainers are for.
I don’t know anything specific about Alice other than what was mentioned earlier, which I agreed with a face value. But I may not necessarily agree with that if I knew more specifics.
I do think that some people are not really following the spirit of Amateur vs. Open but at the same time it’s impossible to write rules that would easily define it for every possible scenario, situation or nuance.
And maybe a lot of it is that I have no idea why you would choose to ride as an Amateur when you can beat the pros in the exact same classes. I’d be way more proud of that accomplishment than beating amateurs. Maybe there is an adequate reason to do this for years, with multiple horses, from Training level through FEI. Just not one I can think of.
When we say we sold a horse for “profit” that’s usually not the case. Yes, you got more than you paid for the horse, but how much did you invest in board, training, farrier, vet, dentist, blankets, saddle fittings, etc. I’ve NEVER made a “profit” selling a horse, although I consider the education each has provided me “priceless”.
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Here’s an idea…
Instead of dividing the classes by AA and Pro. Divide it by those who have shown above the level and those who have not. So, if you’re showing TL, if you’ve shown first or above before, you’re counted in one division and if not, then the other. Showing second, then if you’ve shown third or above you’re in one division versus the other.
Hard to prove at a schooling show but the records should be available for recognized.
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I’m all for having a “closing” for the sale of horses, with a contract, owner present, buyer present, agents present, etc. And the option to buy “title insurance” on the horses. This would solve some problems.
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It certainly would save a lot of problems.
alice tarjan is an attorney so I’m surprised this happened if it is true. She, more so than many others would understand how to protect herself
However…she apparently had successful sales through CR in the past, and would have no reason to believe that this sale would be atypical. And that brings up another question: why did CR make THIS sale different ? Why now ?
Yes, but you are missing a couple of points.
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This is a sport and a hobby. It is entirely made up. There is no rule out there that says the “halo effect of money” that rules in, say, the economic or college admissions world needs to be allowed to enter this one. I challenge you to find a logical or metaphysical reason that this must be so.
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Competitive sport is only worthwhile when the field is, in fact, relatively level. That’s why, for example, no one wants to watch a boxing match where one guy has already accepted payment to take a fall; no one wants to watch the effects of steriods compete in the Tour de France, rather than un-drugged people; and it’s pretty boring with the outcome of a horse show class was determined years earlier by the size of the purchase checks of the horses.
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If you look at the history of college admissions, no one has said, “Meh… let’s continue to discriminate against the poor (or female or non-white).” On the contrary, universities have appreciated that intelligence does not correlate entirely with wealth, whiteness and peeing standing up. And so they have created need-blind admissions, affirmative action policies and recruiting strategies at places like Indian Reservations and poor parts of inner cities meant to attract unlikely candidates who would thrive with a college education.
My point is that those who wish to work around that “economic halo effect” precisely because they know that intelligence, rather than privilege, is the characteristic they are after have made an attempt to combat the confounding effects of wealth. And so you’ll need a very different example than the one offered by higher education if you want to say that the hobby sport of dressage just needs to submit to the general problem of wealth being the best predictor of success on horseback. It absolutely can go otherwise. But first we have to be honest and not complacent about it.
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