My friend’s trainer is a good horseman so I think he will do it gently. I just had no idea that it was used so much. Thanks for all the good examples. I can see, in the right hands, how useful it can be with a horse.
Do you have any actual experience to back those claims up or do you just have some funky Kool-Aid?
I can say with much certainty that my mare’s spirit was definitely not broken. Anyone who worked with or around her would tell you the same thing. No one ever saw her “stumble along” and in fact she’d still try and dump you if she felt like it.
She is not unique among the MANY horses that I’ve seen that have been trained this way.
Since the horses I work with are driving horses, it is VERY helpful if they ever get into trouble, i.e. trip & fall. They’ve been down, they learn to wait to get up. That they don’t panic situations like is a huge benefit & prevent injuries to horse & driver.
Hum “used so much”? I don’t think its a common, or widely practiced horse training technique. At least not in this century. Just about every poster here said that they have only seen it done a time or two - and only for horses with serious behavior issues.
Just curious - what is the GOAL of laying a horse down? WHY does this horse need to be laid down?
Why does your friend’s horse need to be forced to the ground? Is it trying to kill people like the horse quietann described? Did you notice in that story, the horse was violent, and the respected trainer said that they have only had to do this a couple times in a long career?
I didn’t see a single poster giving approval for this training method for anything but horses that are exhibiting extremely dangerous behavior. It is NOT a normal part of training.
I can tell you I would not let a trainer “lay my horse down”. No way in hell.
[QUOTE=Appsolute;7858099]
Hum “used so much”? I don’t think its a common, or widely practiced horse training technique. At least not in this century. Just about every poster here said that they have only seen it done a time or two - and only for horses with serious behavior issues.
Just curious - what is the GOAL of laying a horse down? WHY does this horse need to be laid down?
Why does your friend’s horse need to be forced to the ground? Is it trying to kill people like the horse quietann described? Did you notice in that story, the horse was violent, and the respected trainer said that they have only had to do this a couple times in a long career?
I didn’t see a single poster giving approval for this training method for anything but horses that are exhibiting extremely dangerous behavior. It is NOT a normal part of training.
I can tell you I would not let a trainer “lay my horse down”. No way in hell.[/QUOTE]
I agree with most of this. From your posts it still sounds like you’re going to do this basically for the heck of it. Unless it involves solving leaping, kicking or rearing, I wouldn’t be going this way unless everything else has failed.
[QUOTE=red mares;7858130]
I agree with most of this. From your posts it still sounds like you’re going to do this basically for the heck of it. Unless it involves solving leaping, kicking or rearing, I wouldn’t be going this way unless everything else has failed.[/QUOTE]
The horse doesn’t belong to the OP. The OP is doing nothing.
OK, so the OP’s friend is going to do it for the heck of it. Doesn’t change my thought at all.
For no other reason than she wants to do it. Her trainer does it all the time with his horses.
There are times you want to lay a horse down.
I taught this 17 year old broodmare someone gave us to lay down when she was getting so sore-footed it was hard for her to stand there for me to trim her.
One way to do it is to ask the horse just enough to keep getting down, never more than the horse is comfortable giving, keep waiting for that to ask for more.
If you can do it without the horse resisting, they very slowly and gently lay down and just stay there.
As you can see, we were on a sandy hill and she laid down gently on the high side, so it was barely a little drop onto soft sand.
After the first couple of times, she would do it on her own when I asked, not even with a halter on her and laid there contented, no scuffs around in the sand:
[QUOTE=red mares;7858205]
OK, so the OP’s friend is going to do it for the heck of it. Doesn’t change my thought at all.[/QUOTE]
I don’t disagree with you, but it’s not fair to harangue the OP. Not saying you were, but would hate for others to piggy back on your post attaching this silly exercise to her.
I agree with lookmanohands and Wendy - this is no way to train a horse. Yes, some horses it might work with, most are severely traumatied though. OP, please try to talk to you friend and not let this get done to her horse.
I usd to board at a barn where some guy would come out (he supposedly taught “high school dressage”)and he would routinely just force these animals to fall over and ride them straight into fences. I was riding in the next arena over when he pulled this lay down stunt on a very nice mare and when she was on the ground he stood on her and would not let her up. He did this multiple times during the next 30 minutes. My horse had been a victim of some abuse and I realized it was making him totally upset - we had to leave. I reported him to the owner of the mare and she refused to believe that this violence was being used against her horse…until he lamed her and traumatized her so badly she would not come out of her stall.
One other horse that had this done to him was forced to lay on the ground for an hour (I was told) with his legs tied together and a tarp completely over him while the “trainer” walked on him and sat on him. Horse could never be caught again and basically went completely crazy. What lovely outcomes.
Different to teach a horse to lay for easy mounting or some other useful purpose but to break its spirit - no, no - please no.
“Break it’s spirit” sounds like hyperbole from cornball Disney movies of the 1960’s.
More like, “teach it that fighting a rope is futile.” Or by extension, that fighting the trainer is futile.
My boss when I was growing up told of having used it once; with an attractive Appaloosa large pony he thought could be useful but who was downright rank. Well, no harm was done, the light bulb went off in the pony’s head while he was contemplating enforced recumbency, and he went on to become one of our most valued school horses for the next 20 years–had he not been “laid down” he’d have been back on a panel truck, “return to sender” to the killers.
People who work with horses like this know what they’re doing. If you don’t, steer clear and don’t get all “judgey-pants.”
[QUOTE=shiloh;7858456]
My horse had been a victim of some abuse and I realized it was making him totally upset - we had to leave.[/QUOTE]
? This is probably the most extreme anthropomorphic statement I have seen in a while!
(right after the whole “breaking their spirit”, I suppose)
This was commonly done in training cavalry horses. As a training technique it reinforced the trooper’s authority over the horse. As a tactical matter its primary purpose was reduction in visibility for the trooper. Laying the horse down broke its visual profile, not its “spirit.” A secondary purpose (primary in John Ford movies) was to allow the trooper to “fort up” behind the horse using it as a “berm.” If the trooper were in extremis this might have value. No trooper worth their salt would do this casually as loss of the horse means the trooper just became “leg infantry.” Not something high on the trooper’s “to do” list I’m sure.
Done correctly it has no significant, negative consequences for the horse and can have value as a training technique for some horses who have not responded positively to other techniques. We’ve never had to use it, here, but then we’ve never had a horse where this very powerful technique was necessary.
G.
I could see doing it if you had a horse that was so dangerous that it was either “try this or euthanize”. Other than that, I think it has a very high possibility of being abusive and either backfire or be of no use. I’d run from a trainer that thinks this is valuable training for any but the most rare of circumstances.
[QUOTE=jetsmom;7860329]
I could see doing it if you had a horse that was so dangerous that it was either “try this or euthanize”. Other than that, I think it has a very high possibility of being abusive and either backfire or be of no use. I’d run from a trainer that thinks this is valuable training for any but the most rare of circumstances.[/QUOTE]
The problem with a trainer using it as a last resort is that you are assuming the trainer is a really good trainer. I work with difficult horses all the time. I have a wide array of tools in my tool box. I do not need to lay a horse down to teach it something. IMHO the “trainers” that do this just aren’t very good. Definitely run from one who does this.
No, it is based on outdated methods that have since been disproven by scientific studies. Force and intimidation methods for all animals have been disproven as the most effective way to train or change behavior.
I have to say, I’m pretty horrified at the number of people who are so casual about this. It’s one thing to TEACH your horse to lay down. It’s a completely different thing to force your horse to the ground. It’s like being transported back in time a hundred years. Good God.
ETA: Quietann gets a pass, if I’m understanding her story correctly. Horse flipped lead rope on to poll, started to freak out and trainer yanked it hard enough to throw horse off balance? To me, that’s less force/intimidation and more “cause and effect”
Come on, its like anything with horses. There are people who can train well, and others who can’t, so they use force. My trainer teaches horses to lie down, but he TEACHES them. If its just because a client wants it, he takes them out multiple times a day, for a few moments at a time, and by the end of the day, they are quietly, and peacefully lying there. Absolutely no trauma. There is no dastardly music playing, and no one’s “spirit is broken”!
On the other hand, he did use it to help reform a horse that was dangerously bolting under saddle. He took him to the round pen, and taught him to lie down in about 20 minutes. It took a long time, because the horse had to submit (there are no ropes or force involved), and this horse was not submissive. Damn if it didn’t cut way down on his bolting! I was surprised.
My trainer suggested something similar with my filly. Her suggestion was to prevent her from getting up once, just once. This is something my dog trainer/breeder neighbors did with their dogs as well, so I wasn’t a stranger to the concept. When she was still very young, I gently held her down in a laying position when she was trying to get up. She struggled a little for a few seconds, then gave up. After a few more seconds, I let her up. I think she thinks I am really big and tough now. She listens very well and has never tried to run me over when doing groundwork. When I get
She also will throw little fits while I’m riding her, to express her displeasure at something - this mostly amounts to tossing her head. She has plunged and bucked a little, but seems very intent on NOT trying to get me off, just um…“debating” her point. (Points are usually “I don’t WANNA be in the back of the trail ride!” or “But why CAN’T I gallop up this hill” or “Backing up is stupid”).
[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;7860082]
“Break it’s spirit” sounds like hyperbole from cornball Disney movies of the 1960’s.
More like, “teach it that fighting a rope is futile.” Or by extension, that fighting the trainer is futile.
My boss when I was growing up told of having used it once; with an attractive Appaloosa large pony he thought could be useful but who was downright rank. Well, no harm was done, the light bulb went off in the pony’s head while he was contemplating enforced recumbency, and he went on to become one of our most valued school horses for the next 20 years–had he not been “laid down” he’d have been back on a panel truck, “return to sender” to the killers.
People who work with horses like this know what they’re doing. If you don’t, steer clear and don’t get all “judgey-pants.”[/QUOTE]
This reminds me of a training incident when I was younger. I was training my young horse (4 year old). I was riding her next to a creek because I had no arena to ride in. She wanted to go right, I told her we needed to go left. She argued, pulled and ‘won’…all the way up until she fell into the the creek (just tripped down the hill on onto her knees). She thought I had ‘pushed’ her into the creek somehow for disobeying, so she never argued with rein/leg again.
It was an accidental example of laying a horse down or a similar technique, but it worked!
