Anyone ever do this? I don’t mean as a trick or part of a Liberty routine. I mean as a training tool. An old timer I worked for long ago did it to a horse that had some issues. I don’t remember it fixing the horse’s problems though. It was a sort of last resort thing as I recall, not done routinely.
A friend of mine is going to have her trainer do it to her horse. For no other reason than she wants to do it. Her trainer does it all the time with his horses. Is it like putting a dog on his back, teaching submission? Would make mounting bareback easier 
[QUOTE=Lilykoi;7857045]
Anyone ever do this? I don’t mean as a trick or part of a Liberty routine. I mean as a training tool. An old timer I worked for long ago did it to a horse that had some issues. I don’t remember it fixing the horse’s problems though. It was a sort of last resort thing as I recall, not done routinely.
A friend of mine is going to have her trainer do it to her horse. For no other reason than she wants to do it. Her trainer does it all the time with his horses. Is it like putting a dog on his back, teaching submission? Would make mounting bareback easier ;)[/QUOTE]
I have seen it done, with a great deal of care, with a horse that had behavior problems. With this horse it worked.
Easier to get on bareback, but remember, the horse has to get to it’s feet and you have to stay with THAT. My horse will get down on his knees for a peanut which was easy enough to teach
It’s a tool, not a toy, and I wouldn’t put a horse on the ground “just because.”
But yes, I did lay one down once. Yes, I think it helped. I saw much more focus, relaxation and attention from the horse following. Still wasn’t perfect, but there was an improvement.
I also inadvertently did it with a filly on the longe line, years ago. She had a habit of turning to the outside, changing directions and running. Once the leverage was just right and the yank on the line that was meant to stop her put her on the ground. I went and sat on her neck for awhile, let her get up on my timeline and she NEVER pulled that trick on the longe line again.
My BO has done it for years. He has gotten the worst of the worst in for training for decades, and also a lot of untouched 3-4 year olds. Its part of the way he does things.
With an older (>3) horse, he puts the W’s on them, (which itself can often be a challenge), drops them, brush them a bit and puts the harness on them before they get up. Once the horse is up, they get long-lined and usually hooked. Sometimes they buck & carry on, sometimes they just go right off. Within a couple weeks they are pretty solidly green broke & traffic safe.
He laid my old mare down probably a half dozen times over the years. She had a very high opinion of herself & needed to be reminded every couple years who was in charge. It helped quite a bit.
When he starts his young stock, he starts them young - works with them as yearlings before they get too big. I don’t remember him laying down his colts. Usually, they get green broke, driven a couple times, and turned back out for a while.
Yep --every time I ride -almost. Three years ago when my knees started going bad and I couldn’t mount my horse except if the mounting block was almost level with his back, I started to teach him to kneel. He progressed quickly and soon was not only kneeling for me to mount, but when asked, lying completely down on his chest and if asked again, flat on his side. Then my DH saw me doing it a few times and totally was on my case about it. He said it humiliated the horse. Now DH has NEVER said anything about the horses or farm, except “good job, and well done.” That he felt so strongly about it, made me rethink. So I showed a few people how my horse would kneel for me to mount, and they were about divided. Some thought it was cool, others agreed with DH. One lady even ran over to ask me if my horse was sick --he was kneeling waiting for me to get on.
Anyway, I kept him doing it even though I had my knees fixed and can now mount from the ground, again. He likes doing tricks and this is just another trick for him to do. Every time I ride, I try to make him kneel a couple of times to keep the trick fresh.
One thing about lying a horse down, it does make ones tack filthy. A lying down horse who rolls can break a saddle tree. Didn’t happen to me --well, the filthy part did --but W never rolled over on his saddle.
Foxglove
I work with problem horses all the time and have for many years. This method is unnecessary. IMHO it speak volumes about a trainer’s lack of competence.
Teaching a horse to lay down is something completely different.
So the term “laying a horse down” means physically causing them to fall? Or is it referring to giving the horse a cue to lay down voluntarily? I’m gathering both impressions from the responses…and what issues or bad behavior would inspire wanting to lay a horse down?
No - I have never felt the need to force a horse to the ground in the name of training. But I use the SLOOOOW and steady method.
I remember an Australian guy doing that with race horses. I don’t know much about it but I think he called it The Tap. Maybe you can google it.
[QUOTE=Edinborough;7857448]
I remember an Australian guy doing that with race horses. I don’t know much about it but I think he called it The Tap. Maybe you can google it.[/QUOTE]
Endospink. The “endo tap.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oH3FhL0vuBg
Lots of other videos on youtube.
[QUOTE=talkofthetown;7857410]
So the term “laying a horse down” means physically causing them to fall? [/QUOTE]
In old horse breaker terms, causing the horse to lay down. Not fall. You can take one or more front legs with a rope or a W, manipulate their neck and force them down fairly easily without “falling”.
Yes, it is causing a horse to lay down; fall isn’t the right word. It is a pretty controlled evolution. My experience has been that it’s done in a stall. Running W’s are put on the horse, and their front legs are pulled up until they lay down. Sometimes they stand on their back legs first. I have been the one standing outside the stall pulling on the rope.
What behavior inspires it? I’ve seen a lot of general unmanageability: kicking, lunging, biting,etc. The 6-7 yro untouched Dutch Harness Horses are about the worst ones. They generally aren’t to keen on getting with the program, or submitting to people. Other candidates are horses that have been to 3 or 4 different trainers and still aren’t broke or persist in dangerous behavior like running off, rearing or bad balkers.
I have seen many horses that looked like they had a well deserved, one-way ticket to a packing plant reformed this way. They are not horses that I would want to try “slow & steady” with. Not sure that I’d want to drive them every day, but most turn out pretty well.
My experience is that is analogous to the rearing lunge that pulling horses or ponies do when they start trying to move a sled- it looks worse than what it really is. There’s always someone who thinks pulling ponies rear because their being beaten within an inch of their life, when that simply isn’t the case.
I’ve seen some cuts and scrapes, but no real injuries. They can be scared, but usually within 30 minutes they are working pretty well, and don’t really look like the horse that started.
My mother’s pony has developed a bit more attitude than is really needed; she’s getting laid down soon. For an 8?12? yro broke horse, it’s a non-event.
I have been shown how toteach a horse how to lay down without gently. I have never used it. I haven’t seen the need and have broken in horses.
My take on the horse kneeling to mount above. Horses are not stupid and I wouldn’t be surprised if the horse knew he was helping.
Lying down is the ultimate form of submission for a horse: they are extremely vulnerable in this position. Doing so by force is not good horsemanship. Period.
Teaching a horse to lie down on cue is entirely different, and very useful for a variety of reasons.
Your friend sounds a bit clueless. Good training has purpose, and “just because” is not purpose.
I wouldn’t choose a stall. If they fight its too easy for them to flip over and hit their head.
Surcingle. Then either put a strap around the off side leg, or just get creative with the rope. Run the rope from the strap, under the belly to a ring on the near side. Pick the leg up as far as the will let you using the ring for leverage. Pull the nose around the their near side. Most horses will get a bit tired and lean back lowering their brisket towards the ground. Push them back and over.
I think the key here - its FORCING a horse to the ground. Its not teaching them to lay down - its using mechanics to make the horse unable to stand.
Horses are not like dogs - a less dominate dog will lay down and show belly to a pack leader. Horses do not operate this way. They do not “submit” to other horses by showing belly (they submit by yielding to dominate horses - not by rolling over).
They are VERY vulnerable when down on the ground (being as they are prey animals), and being forced to the ground is often quite concerning to a horse.
Sure, a horse can be forced down by a human - that shows them that we have the ultimate power - but I would rather build TRUST in the horse, and SHOW him how to do something - rather than FORCE him to do something.
And I agree - NOT a stall - if not done just right, forcing a horse down can result in a lot of thrashing and possible injury to the horse. Do not do this in an small enclosed space, or near fences etc.
Obviously, I’ve never done it!
A friend took on a more or less feral 3 1/2 year old Morgan gelding, who wasn’t handled after he was a weanling because his breeder couldn’t catch him. Friend sent him directly to a cowboy for 4 months and then for driving training with a very good trainer. After a few months, the trainer said either take him out in the desert and shoot him, or give him away with full disclosure. A woman who does a lot of NH stuff took him on, and has been doing very well with him in carriage and CDE stuff – but still has to put that horse on the ground a couple of times a month or he becomes dangerous again. (ETA: that horse absolutely loves her. He’s one of those that needs VERY firm boundaries.)
Also I once saw an experienced sport horse trainer put a very dangerous 2 year old gelding on the ground at a handling clinic. Here is an edited narrative:
[I]The gelding’s 2, he’s hot, he’s super-smart and not in a good way. He fusses, doesn’t like to stand still… and has a couple of dirty tricks up his sleeve. One month ago, at another handling clinic, he sent his owner to the hospital with his favorite trick. He gets very light in the front, enough that the handler is distracted trying to keep him from rearing, and then he turns his butt and kicks the daylights out of the handler. Today, he nailed one of the junior handlers (she wasn’t hurt but probably had a nasty bruise the next day.) This is one of the cases where the trainer says bring the horse’s head toward the handler, because he’ll yield his hindquarters and miss the handler if he kicks out.
His other favorite trick? Toss his head enough to flip the lead rope over his poll, and then freak out. He did this while the trainer was holding him, reared straight up and the trainer stepped sideways just enough to get him off balance and he went down. He hit the ground hard enough to knock the wind out of him, and we were all a bit worried about whether he was going to get up, but after about 30 seconds he did, and he was very quiet after that. The trainer says he rarely lays a horse down, but with a spoiled, disobedient, and dangerous horse like this he’ll make an exception – and if it gets to that point and the horse injures itself and has to be euthanized, he doesn’t consider that to be a terrible thing. (Says it has happened once or twice in his very long career.)
Rumor has it that the gelding’s sire makes beautiful babies who are absolute sh*ts to handle until they are about 5 years old, and then they go out and win. But they aren’t horses for amateurs.[/I]
I’ll have to ask my friend in Arkansas if she does that with any of hers; I know all the colts DO get hobble-trained; my 2-year-old is getting that right now. 3 out of 4 legs tied together and they get to stand in a pen right next to the highway, learning “spook in PLACE” if at all when the trucks and motorcycle gangs pass.
People PUT “chill” on them–it doesn’t just happen.
It’s about “learned helplessness” a truly horrible “training” procedure. Basically, you teach the animal that it’s pointless to struggle against violence. Break the animal’s spirit. You apply force to the animal and convince the animal it is about to die. Then you keep applying the force and teach the animal that “resistance is futile.” Most subjects experience a break-down of the mind and stop resisting. Completely. Against anything. They just stumble along, complying with anything.
Yes, it’s exactly the same as forcing a dog to lie upside down, pinned- the dog is sure you’re going to kill him, and you refuse to release him until he stops fighting. Destroys the dog’s mind and spirit. No educated dog trainer suggests doing such a horrible thing to a dog.
No educated horse trainer suggests doing such a thing to a horse anymore. It’s a brainwashing technique- destroy the subject’s psyche so you can manipulate and use the subject like a puppet. It’s what pimps to do to their whores, what spousal abusers do their victims.
Frankly, I think it’s kinder to euthanize an animal that you consider uncontrollable than to subject it to such a horrific experience.
