Leaning back

[anon40672407]

I am an ex-eventer, and I’m now riding lessons for fun. My instructor is basically a gal who came up thru Pony Club (so she’s eventer background, too) but then specialized in dressage, and does train horses as well. But she’s not a Medalled-Professional.

We’ve been talking about plugging in the seat, and working on some specific exercises, and she has been dutifully shouting “Sit Back!” “Lean back more!” etc. at me.

But I asked her the other day about the theory behind the idea of riding with shoulders behind the vertical, and she struggled to explain.

When I watch the top riders, I see a lot of ‘behind the vertical’ riding – I’m talking about the riders here, not the horse’s head. It looks like the rider is riding against the horse, not with the horse, to me. It looks like the rider has driven a stake into the ground with their seat, and the horse is having to overcome that.

This can’t be what’s happening, because the horses are performing nicely. So, what is the theory behind this posture, or where might I go to read or see a discussion of the theory behind this posture?

CAVEAT! I AM NOT CRITICIZING MUCH BETTER RIDERS THAN I AM – I AM TRYING TO UNDERSTAND.

[Scribbler]

The theory behind the instructions is likely that you are so tipped forward that when you feel you are leaning back you are barrely upright. I doubt you are really leaning back.

As far as leaning way back in the big leagues I think that’s a way of dealing with the fact they have to sit an extended trot that is so huge most of us would find it unrideable, even posting ;).

Leaning back is not traditional dressage equitation but an expedient move.

No coach tells a lower level rider who has an excellent upright dressage seat to lean back. If your coach said this it means you are tipped forward. ”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹

[beowulf]

You may not be criticising them, but I think it is a fair criticism.

Perhaps it is not the extreme she is wanting out of you, but, when you lean back and pick up your hands, several things happen and it can often be the last “piece” out of place that puts the puzzle together – leaning back usually makes you you put the weight equally on your seatbones, sit deeper in the saddle, lift your sternum and your shoulders tend to square making you a far more effective rider.

Perhaps that is what she is going for? I often hear this too, for the record – as a repurposed eventer myself, used to OTTBs and greenies where riding with a light and forward seat is the norm, it is hard for me to break the habit… but I can feel the difference in my effectiveness when I do!

[Lunabear1988]

Have you seen video of yourself riding when she’s instructing you to do this? Does she herself ride that way?

Because like others above, often we are told to lean back because we are too far forward. And it feels like we are leaning back but when you see it in video, you aren’t “behind the vertical” at all.

I’m guessing she just wants you to sit deeper and more “plugged in.” It is hard to say without video though.

[ToN_Farm]

Agree with the others so far. Without knowing how you are sitting, we can’t say if you need to sit back more. That said, there are a lot of people that always lean back and trainers that do as well. Other times, it’s more a moment in time that we see it.

Depends on who you like to believe, but here is what Carl Hester has to say about leaning back:

[I]Source: http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2016/03/talking-dressage-with-carl-hester/

Question: And the riders who sit behind the movement, particularly the ones with their shoulders back, they are never going to have self-carriage….

Hester: “No, because they are driving the horse down in front. If they sit too strong, behind the vertical, then they are pushing the horse down, through and into the hand. I was told by ‘Rocky’* when you go forward you bring your body forward and when you want to come back, you bring your body back. And it is amazing how most of us do the opposite to that. He always said to me, when you piaffe, you should be sitting over your knee, not sitting on your backside. Charlotte does that naturally, I have to remind myself to do it because I want to be too strong, but that is a really interesting little tip he gave me because piaffe, you get the feeling that you are driving, but in fact you should be sitting over your knee to let the horse use its back.”[/I]

[Dr_Doolittle]

THIS ^^^

[Groom_amp_Taxi]

@aregard

When I watch the top riders, I see a lot of ‘behind the vertical’ riding – I’m talking about the riders here, not the horse’s head. It looks like the rider is riding against the horse, not with the horse, to me. It looks like the rider has driven a stake into the ground with their seat, and the horse is having to overcome that.

This can’t be what’s happening, because the horses are performing nicely. So, what is the theory behind this posture, or where might I go to read or see a discussion of the theory behind this posture?

CAVEAT! I AM NOT CRITICIZING MUCH BETTER RIDERS THAN I AM – I AM TRYING TO UNDERSTAND.

I am definitely the adult rider at whom the instructor is shouting “lean back” to get me somewhere near vertical instead of in front of it - and yes, I have video evidence that when I feel like I am laying on the horse’s rump, I am usually pretty close to vertical.

Like you, I have observed the same behind the vertical tendency in multiple riders who are riding at much higher levels than me - I hope someone will come along who can address that from a technical perspective

ETA: apparently that happened when I was composing my post.

[Jealoushe]

As my jump coach always says, if it isn’t uncomfortable you aren’t doing it right :lol:

My guess is you feel wayyy back but are actually not. Sitting tall and strong in the body is of course, the ideal. Feeling like someone is picking you up by the helmet.

[Scribbler]

The flip side is that when I started h/j lessons as returning rider I’d be told to lean right over the horses neck to do a two point but in the photos from those lessons I am barely in front of the vertical!

[Edre]

My instructor will say “lean back” because as she explains it, many people ride tipped forward or with a closed hip angle so when they think “lean back” they’re actually only just coming into alignment (shoulder hip heel) and not behind with the shoulders.

[piedmontfields]

1. You may need to lean back because you are (still) too far forward, as many have noted above.

2. Exaggerating the lean back can help some riders discover their lower abs. Upon that discovery, they can they shift to a more normal position and keep the lower abs active.

3. Way too many “top” riders routinely lean back again the motion of the horse. Many lesser riders imitate this in order to sit the trot on a bigger mover. This is not ideal and not an appropriate image for aspiration.

[TheMoo]

The best way it’s been explained to me was to think of my pelvis like a cup full of water. Keep it up right. Not sure if that will help without seeing what’s going on but it’s helped me and I am terrible about not sitting up.

[anon40672407]

@ToN Farm

Agree with the others so far. Without knowing how you are sitting, we can’t say if you need to sit back more.

Thanks for the Hester quote.

FTR, I’m not talking about me, and whether or not I need to lean back more. Obviously, a discussion group on the internet can’t determine that without seeing me ride. (Though, never say never, this is COTH!)

I’m asking about the theory behind upper level riders who appear to me to be doing this. It’s possible my eye is wrong. It’s possible they are attempting something I don’t understand (like the comment, above, about sitting the extended trot). There are probably many other possibilities.

In the event that there is a “theory” about leaning back beyond a 90 degree vertical, I wanted to ask about it. Perhaps there isn’t one.

[Scribbler]

@anon40672407

Thanks for the Hester quote.

FTR, I’m not talking about me, and whether or not I need to lean back more. Obviously, a discussion group on the internet can’t determine that without seeing me ride. (Though, never say never, this is COTH!)

I’m asking about the theory behind upper level riders who appear to me to be doing this. It’s possible my eye is wrong. It’s possible they are attempting something I don’t understand (like the comment, above, about sitting the extended trot). There are probably many other possibilities.

In the event that there is a “theory” about leaning back beyond a 90 degree vertical, I wanted to ask about it. Perhaps there isn’t one.

No. It’s a pragmatic way to ride giant gaits.

[GraceLikeRain]

@anon40672407

Thanks for the Hester quote.

FTR, I’m not talking about me, and whether or not I need to lean back more. Obviously, a discussion group on the internet can’t determine that without seeing me ride. (Though, never say never, this is COTH!)

I’m asking about the theory behind upper level riders who appear to me to be doing this. It’s possible my eye is wrong. It’s possible they are attempting something I don’t understand (like the comment, above, about sitting the extended trot). There are probably many other possibilities.

In the event that there is a “theory” about leaning back beyond a 90 degree vertical, I wanted to ask about it. Perhaps there isn’t one.

When it comes to horses, photos can be so deceiving. How many times have we all paused at a sale ad with a breathtaking trot photo only to click on the video and think…meh.

On the rare occasions that you see a rider truly leaning behind the vertical it is to try and stay with really large gaits. It is a big core workout for me to stay with a pleasant mover. These horses are so beyond anything the average rider will ever sit on, much less sit an extended trot.

I also know some riders who aren’t top top riders on big movers who sometimes get behind the vertical. Several have volunteered that they know that they have this bad habit and it typically has a pain history. It started out as a protective move for a bad hip, sensitive lower back, or some other area that is inhibited their ability to totally absorb the motion. Much like tipping forward, it can be hard to eradicate.

[Curly_Feather]

@Scribbler

The theory behind the instructions is likely that you are so tipped forward that when you feel you are leaning back you are barrely upright. I doubt you are really leaning back.

As far as leaning way back in the big leagues I think that’s a way of dealing with the fact they have to sit an extended trot that is so huge most of us would find it unrideable, even posting ;).

Leaning back is not traditional dressage equitation but an expedient move.

No coach tells a lower level rider who has an excellent upright dressage seat to lean back. If your coach said this it means you are tipped forward. ”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹

Oh yes. You might feel like you’re leaning back, but if you watch a video you are actually finally properly upright. Or that was the case for me anyway

[Melissa.Van_Doren]

To develop a truly effective seat, the rider works through stages. In the end, the Very Best are able to tuck the pelvis, engage the core and psoas muscles for stability, and maintain an engaged, effective leg with stretched calves, lowered heels and adhesive rear-thigh muscles while sitting Vertically. But that’s at the very end of the learning curve. Leaning waaay back in the beginning is a way to let your pelvis tuck even though you don’t have the physical flexibility or strength to achieve an adhesive seat without leaning back. Gradually, you develop strength, suppleness and control to bring yourself more upright without losing your pelvic position and leg, but many riders simply don’t enter the ranks of the Very Best and stay somewhere behind the vertical to keep the seat from losing contact with the back, leaning even further back when the movement of the horse challenges the ability of the rider to “sit”. The whole torturous process, of course, is all about centering ourselves in a way that allows the horse full freedom of movement, from which he can be coaxed to develop carrying power unhindered by us sitting in the middle and clinging on for dear life. The ideal is that the dressage rider maintains a neutral-balance seat, which is then purposefully altered to influence the horse’s balance in a positive way.

[Scribbler]

@Melissa.Van Doren

To develop a truly effective seat, the rider works through stages. In the end, the Very Best are able to tuck the pelvis, engage the core and psoas muscles for stability, and maintain an engaged, effective leg with stretched calves, lowered heels and adhesive rear-thigh muscles while sitting Vertically. But that’s at the very end of the learning curve. Leaning waaay back in the beginning is a way to let your pelvis tuck even though you don’t have the physical flexibility or strength to achieve an adhesive seat without leaning back. Gradually, you develop strength, suppleness and control to bring yourself more upright without losing your pelvic position and leg, but many riders simply don’t enter the ranks of the Very Best and stay somewhere behind the vertical to keep the seat from losing contact with the back, leaning even further back when the movement of the horse challenges the ability of the rider to “sit”. The whole torturous process, of course, is all about centering ourselves in a way that allows the horse full freedom of movement, from which he can be coaxed to develop carrying power unhindered by us sitting in the middle and clinging on for dear life. The ideal is that the dressage rider maintains a neutral-balance seat, which is then purposefully altered to influence the horse’s balance in a positive way.

I actually disagree that leaning back is a learning stage for developing riders. I’ve only seen one beginner / intermediate rider doing this and she’s a gosh awful rider with a plethora of position problems and I think some pain issues. Her coach has basically given up trying to fix her. Even so she might be getting a bit more upright over time.

Most intermediate riders fail by tipping forwards especially if they have prior hunter jumper seat experience ( ask me how I know!!).

I see alot of adult ammies and returning riders and also adult beginners and leaning back is simply not a common stage, either with good coaches that can give seat lessons or the crap coaches.

That exaggerated leaning back thing is something I only see in photos and video of pro riders on really big moving horses.

”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹

[Dr_Doolittle]

@aregard are you actually “tipping or leaning forward” with your upper body (as in a hunter rider doing a half seat or even a light jumping seat), or are your shoulders going forward into a slouch where you collapse your midsection?

These are two separate issues.

(As an eventer, I feel ya! :lol:)

In the first case, this probably means that your hip is locked and has too much angle; leaning back is not the way to fix this since you need to soften and open your hip angles, “kneel down” on the horse, and allow your thighs to drape while keeping your belly button up - which will allow your pelvis to sit evenly so you can softly “plug in.”

Simply leaning back (in an exaggerated way) will result in you locking and compressing your lumbar spine/small of your back, and possibly also tightening your hip and pushing your seatbones down into the horse.

If you slouch (a problem that I struggle with), the fix is to open your ribcage, spread your collarbones and lift your sternum, allowing the elbows to drop back and down and the shoulder blades to softly slide down your back. You should imagine a force coming from back to front (like the wind in a sail), which will help straighten your posture without forcing you into rigidly “sitting back” which can result in everything locking up. Think of lifting your pubic bone while spreading your butt cheeks - but don’t force, this usually puts the pelvis in the correct position. Make sure your stirrups are the right length; too short and you will be forced into a chair seat, too long and you will be forced into a fork seat.

You don’t want to arch your low back in an effort to “sit up straight” in the saddle. Good posture should come from stretching the legs back and down and centering your pelvis, keeping the hips open and engaging your CORE without locking up your back. You should be absorbing the motion of the horse with your hips and knees, not your lower back.

Obviously the inside of the thigh and calf should be contacting the horse, not the back of the thigh and calf…

The upper body can then be lifted and carried (stack the blocks) with the contact originating from the elbows as a result of a supple, adhesive seat that is strong and balanced and centered.

The reason you sometimes see ULRs leaning back (to sit big trots, etc.) is because most of them (unlike us “mere mortals”) already have the above ^^^ qualities, and CORES OF STEEL. They are able to change their upper body posture without compromising their suppleness and seat connection, and of course they don’t go around leaning back constantly.

I have been working on my core strength daily for about 6 or 7 years (it not only helps me ride better but it protects my low back which is pretty arthritic at 62), and I am arguably riding better than I did 20 years ago as a result; it makes a HUGE difference.

I train and coach at the lower levels, and have been studying horse and rider biomechanics for awhile - working on a correct seat and developing a strong core helps riders tremendously. And anyone can do it! Core exercises don’t take much time and are truly transformational.

This is “lazy instruction” (IMHO), and overly simplistic. Your trainer should find better and more detailed ways of explaining and conveying postural corrections so that your entire position improves; it’s not all about the upper body being perpendicular to the ground.

I hope this makes sense, and studying rider biomechanics is incredibly beneficial (and will help your horse as well!)

[Scribbler]

@Dr. Doolittle

@aregard are you actually “tipping or leaning forward” with your upper body (as in a hunter rider doing a half seat or even a light jumping seat), or are your shoulders going forward into a slouch where you collapse your midsection?

These are two separate issues.

(As an eventer, I feel ya! :lol:)

In the first case, this probably means that your hip is locked and has too much angle; leaning back is not the way to fix this since you need to soften and open your hip angles, “kneel down” on the horse, and allow your thighs to drape while keeping your belly button up - which will allow your pelvis to sit evenly so you can softly “plug in.”

Simply leaning back (in an exaggerated way) will result in you locking and compressing your lumbar spine/small of your back, and possibly also tightening your hip and pushing your seatbones down into the horse.

If you slouch (a problem that I struggle with), the fix is to open your ribcage, spread your collarbones and lift your sternum, allowing the elbows to drop back and down and the shoulder blades to softly slide down your back. You should imagine a force coming from back to front (like the wind in a sail), which will help straighten your posture without forcing you into rigidly “sitting back” which can result in everything locking up. Think of lifting your pubic bone while spreading your butt cheeks - but don’t force, this usually puts the pelvis in the correct position. Make sure your stirrups are the right length; too short and you will be forced into a chair seat, too long and you will be forced into a fork seat.

You don’t want to arch your low back in an effort to “sit up straight” in the saddle. Good posture should come from stretching the legs back and down and centering your pelvis, keeping the hips open and engaging your CORE without locking up your back. You should be absorbing the motion of the horse with your hips and knees, not your lower back.

Obviously the inside of the thigh and calf should be contacting the horse, not the back of the thigh and calf…

The upper body can then be lifted and carried (stack the blocks) with the contact originating from the elbows as a result of a supple, adhesive seat that is strong and balanced and centered.

The reason you sometimes see ULRs leaning back (to sit big trots, etc.) is because most of them (unlike us “mere mortals”) already have the above ^^^ qualities, and CORES OF STEEL. They are able to change their upper body posture without compromising their suppleness and seat connection, and of course they don’t go around leaning back constantly.

I have been working on my core strength daily for about 6 or 7 years (it not only helps me ride better but it protects my low back which is pretty arthritic at 62), and I am arguably riding better than I did 20 years ago as a result; it makes a HUGE difference.

I train and coach at the lower levels, and have been studying horse and rider biomechanics for awhile - working on a correct seat and developing a strong core helps riders tremendously. And anyone can do it! Core exercises don’t take much time and are truly transformational.

This is “lazy instruction” (IMHO), and overly simplistic. Your trainer should find better and more detailed ways of explaining and conveying postural corrections so that your entire position improves; it’s not all about the upper body being perpendicular to the ground.

I hope this makes sense, and studying rider biomechanics is incredibly beneficial (and will help your horse as well!)

This!! Excellent description of what you really need to do and the differentiation between slouch and hunt seat is really important