Lease and Trainer Commission

[findeight]

Depends on the trainer but the ones I know/knew/dealt with didn’t really “shop” at a set time and place for a set period of time. More like they were always shopping listening to other trainers pitching a sale. Always selling too, always pitched anything they had clients trying to sell. What do you think those trainers are chatting about when you see them talking with each other at the shows?

There’s all kinds of trainers out there with all kinds of ways of operating. Just be sure you are clear on how the trainer you are trusting to act as your agent or evaluate a horse for you is going to charge you before getting involved. There is no one size that will fit all so never assume they will do it the same way as another trainer does.

Be sure they are worth trusting too. Many are not.

[Beam_Me_Up]

When I was shopping for an inexpensive event prospect, I paid my trainer his lesson rate to watch/opine on a brief video (5-10 min) of the trial ride. I proposed it, and wasn’t sure if it was an “ok” suggestion, but he was happy with it.

It probably took him ~20 minutes per, instead a full hour lesson. I could not have afforded to pay him hourly to shop with me (driving, etc.), nor would have 15% of the horse price have covered the typical full service trainer involvement.

[Bogie]

@findeight

Just be sure you are clear on how the trainer you are trusting to act as your agent or evaluate a horse for you is going to charge you before getting involved. There is no one size that will fit all so never assume they will do it the same way as another trainer does.

This!

[findeight]

Cost of a lesson to view a video is common and fair. Remember you are not paying for the actual elapsed time, you are paying for the years of experience, continuing education ( not the class room kind), knowledge of your needs.

Like visiting a doctor or lawyer, you aren’t paying for that 20 minute office visit.

[Peggy]

There are trainers who charge upfront for looking at horses, but then subtract that from the commission if/when the client buys a horse.

[findeight]

Sensible.

[vangus19]

Trainers- what is your reply when someone questions your commission after the deal is done and the commission invoice has been sent?

[OverandOnward]

@Demerara_Stables

is 3 hours of work going to change the horse you’re going to buy?

Very probably. There is a good chanced that g-you will buy a horse you would not even be aware of without the trainer’s work. Plus the trainer’s help should cut down on the horses you spend your time trying out.

That’s the point of working with a trainer. Trainers know other trainers, can get in-depth answers and can sift through the horses they know won’t work for a particular client.

Working with a trainer, the client goes and sees only the top candidate horses (if the client is doing it properly). They don’t have to do all of the research, then go, see and ride horse after horse, that they quickly realize are not a good choice for them.

Trainers are likely to have access to horses that haven’t been advertised. Or that are known in places not known to the new buyer. Good trainers are wired into the trainer network in their discipline and milieu.

Something really important to know in horse-show world is that some very nice horses are never advertised. Trainers market them directly to their own people, and/or among other trainers. To get the best placement for the horse, which enhances the trainer’s own reputation with happy buyers. Such horses do not belong on the public internet.

That is the reason to work with a middle-person/broker/locator. They have access that the buyer otherwise does not have.

[paw]

I’m not sure that anyone minds paying a fair commission to their current trainer for help finding a horse. What is (IMO) questionable) is when a trainer demands a commission merely because you(g) acquire a horse (via another channel) while training with them. Or is double-dipping on an in-barn transfer.

[trubandloki]

@vangus19

Trainers- what is your reply when someone questions your commission after the deal is done and the commission invoice has been sent?

Remind them of the contract you both signed about what the going rate for a commission is.

[Equibrit]

Is there a contract between you and your trainer regarding commission for this transaction ?

Leasing - Equine Legal Solutions

[OverandOnward]

In addition to a trainer’s help with finding a horse, there is one more consideration for a transaction that does not seem to have a trainer’s involvement.

For owners who are on the trainer’s program … The trainer is creating a milieu that makes it easier to find a horse of the right type and caliber. Through their own time, talents and resources.

G-you would not be in contact with so many people and horses of that interest without the trainer’s investment and time into maintaining a facility and a program that facilitates g-your horse activity. Without it, g-you would not have found this horse. Even if the trainer did not directly assist.

Anyway, very generally speaking, within a program and/or barn, that’s the trainer’s contribution to a successful search, even if the trainer didn’t do the actual searching.

I don’t know how much that is worth monetarily. Whatever the market is customarily willing to pay, I suppose. I suppose the real question is if it would make sense to an owner to withdraw from the boarding and the program to avoid this sort of passive commission.

[Topline888]

No contract (with our trainer). This was just mentioned to me in passing.

I’ve learned a lot from this thread and appreciate everyone’s input and different perspectives. I’m not trying to fight paying the commmission – more just understanding some of the unwritten rules that I don’t always know about being mostly just a recreational rider (I show occasionally, but not very much). I should have asked (and will ask now) for a contract so expectations are clear.

[CBoylen]

Generally, it’s in the boarding contract that all sales and leases are on a commission basis.

[Topline888]

We have no boarding contract.

[Xctrygirl]

For those expected to/planning to pay a commission, this absolutely should be included in the bill of sale. There are 3 US states that require disclosure of all commissions. More will be coming plus it’s MUCH better to have the transparency.

Em

[trubandloki]

@Xctrygirl

For those expected to/planning to pay a commission, this absolutely should be included in the bill of sale. There are 3 US states that require disclosure of all commissions. More will be coming plus it’s MUCH better to have the transparency.

Em

How does that work if the bill of sale is between the buyer and the seller (so no question of what is being paid for the horse)?
The seller does not need to know what I am paying my trainer to find me a horse.

[findeight]

Nothing personal here but that is your fault. Insist on a boarding contract for your protection, boarders absolutely, positively need one. So do the barn owners/operators (whoever you pay every month). Not having a contract allows shady practices to thrive.

Any barn I’ve been in with any buy/sell/lease business (which is the vast majority) covered expectation, responsibility and commission on those transactions in the boarding contract.

And yes, even small private barns I boarded at had a boarding contract even if it was only two paragraphs. Also, yes I have had to produce a boarding contract (and in one case proof of ownership). Twice, once after a barn was foreclosed and seized by authorities and once when the trainer/BM was physically evicted immediately from the property by law enforcement at the direction the property owner/landlord.

In a third case, I saw signs I didn’t like and left one barn a few weeks before ATF raided it for guns and drugs. Everybody who was still there had to show valid contract and proof of ownership before removing their horses and the feds were not easy to deal with as far as their tack and equipment.

Now, that was over a span of about 55 years and, I dunno how many barns in 3 states, likely well over 20 if you count the known to be temporary places and those that didn’t work out.

But you need a CONTRACT when somebody else gets paid to take care of your horse.

[Demerara_Stables]

@findeight

And yes, even small private barns I boarded at had a boarding contract even if it was only two paragraphs. Also, yes I have had to produce a boarding contract (and in one case proof of ownership). Twice, once after a barn was foreclosed and seized by authorities and once when the trainer/BM was physically evicted immediately from the property by law enforcement at the direction the property owner/landlord.

In a third case, I saw signs I didn’t like and left one barn a few weeks before ATF raided it for guns and drugs. Everybody who was still there had to show valid contract and proof of ownership before removing their horses and the feds were not easy to deal with as far as their tack and equipment.

Omg

@Topline888 there should absolutely be a boarding contract, and although the best ones are written by attorneys, I think it’s prudent to ask for one (even if it is very basic and not by an attorney which of course is $$$).

I have a boarding contract, but not yet a training contract, although I charge for training a la carte and provide my rates and policies in writing ahead of the client moving in. When my program is larger I will add a training contract. My policies are very straightforward but I want everyone to be on the same page so there are no surprises on either end. IME that keeps a lot of sour grapes out of the relationship.

[OverandOnward]

I am so done with every excuse horse people can come up with for no contracts. And then the horror that – gasp – someone cheated them, and there is no real recourse.

At this point in history, the horse industry has to start considering itself an adult. It is time to see a refusal, or simply the absence, of a written, signed contract, for buying/selling, for boarding, for help with a search, etc. and so on, as a Big Red Flag.

Not having a contract leaves the person fronting the money unprotected. Those trainers, and others, including horse owners/sellers/buyers, who act as if wanting a contract is a shocking level of distrust, should be the ones who are viewed with suspicion.

It doesn’t have to be a multi-page tome with every legal nuance detailed. It can be a one-page list of the items agreed. Signed by all parties. That may not be the “best” contract or agreement, but it is better than nothing.

One of the primary reasons to have a contract is not because of lack of trust. It is a written set of reminders to both parties of what was agreed. Memories drift, naturally. Apart from the intentional memory drift.

It’s time for a refusal to sign a contract to be a reason to walk away. From a deal, from a seller, and from a trainer or barn owner/manager.