Leg yielding against a canter lead

[Carrie94]

Theoretically speaking, is it possible for a horse to maintain the inside lead in the canter while leg yielding (or doing travers) the opposite way? So for instance, if a horse is cantering on the right lead, can he leg yield left without doing a flying change?

The reason I ask is I’ve encountered a horse who seems to be able to avoid changing even when I really push his hip over the other way. So cantering right, I’ll move his hip left to get the change (exaggerated at this point since he’s just learning), and he’ll try to move his hip off my leg but he won’t actually change leads. Obviously this isn’t with any real quality and I can tell he finds it extremely difficult, but it just got me thinking of how this works.

I don’t know if you guys ever do this but sometimes I pretend I’m a horse and have four legs and duplicate what I’m trying to get the horse to do to get a feel for what it should be like. When I did this I couldn’t see myself being physically able to leg yield without switching leads first, but it seemed like the travers would be possible, although very difficult.

Thoughts?

[alibi_18]

It’s called a half pass.

[normandy_shores]

Alibi, I believe the OP is talking about going the opposite direction of halfpass, like a leg yield.

[Rerider54]

@Carrie94

… is it possible for a horse to maintain the inside lead in the canter while leg yielding (or doing travers) the opposite way? So for instance, if a horse is cantering on the right lead, can he leg yield left without doing a flying change?

Since you have ridden a horse that does this…it can happen. This is not a half pass… that is lateral with a bend In the direction of the lead.

I have ridden this exercise in a lesson to get my horse straighter and under herself a bit more (precursor to collection). As for a horse using it a an evasion. 1. Possibly the horse thinks this is what you are asking. 2. It might be easier for the horse to do this instead of changing. 3. The horse is actually refusing to change.

Someone further along can help with how to change your approach to asking/flying change. My own horse had a tendency to ignore my leg. Still working on this so I can’t help but I will be reading this thread to see how others work the issue.

[Lusoluv]

I have purposely asked my horse (say cantering on R lead) to move laterally left or right, while maintaining the lead with a slight bend around my inside leg. She can yield to the left or right. There’s not enough bend to call it a true half pass when I ask her to move right. I am in the right diagonal seat position, so she knows NOT to change leads even tho she has changed direction laterally. For a horse who knows its changes, this is a good test of obedience, balance, etc.

[joiedevie99]

Definitely! It’s an exercise I ride often. Leg yield or half pass off the rail to the quarter line, leg yield back out to the track without changing lead.

It’s a wonderful correction for a horse that throws the shoulder in the half pass, or doesn’t stand up and around the inside leg. Leg yielding towards the lead you are on opens up the shoulder and encourages reach. Leg yielding away from the lead you are on shortens the horse and brings the legs under.

It can be a hard exercise with a horse that has newly learned the change unless the rider keeps the aids very distinct.

As to your problem, what if you think about aligning the shoulders straight (in shoulder-fore) in the new direction rather than moving the hip?

[BigMama1]

Sure. In her Toronto clinic last weekend Charlotte Dujardin used canter LY quite a bit and says she starts with LY before teaching canter HP because it’s easier for the horse to go sideways in LY.

[lorilu]

I do it to help balance in prep for those 10m CC half circles that are STILL in4-3!!

[alibi_18]

@normandy_shores

Alibi, I believe the OP is talking about going the opposite direction of halfpass, like a leg yield.

Oupsie, I had a way longer answer than that… it disappeared…

But the OP is talking about a half pass.

Anyway, in short :
@Carrie94

Horses can leg yield, half pass, shoulder-in, haunches-in (travers) and renvers while cantering.

You’ll need to find another way to teach your horse the flying changes.

How’s your horse’s counter canter?
How’s your horse’s simple changes?

I practice counter canter and push them out on a diagonal.

[GramV]

Absolutely. I use it as an exercise all of the time to improve the half pass to get the horse more upright and against he outside leg again, improve the quality of the canter, make sure the horse is listening and not just doing a movement.

[outerbanks77]

Yes, some schools of thought say to only canter LY away from the leading leg. However, my instructor has had us LY towards the lead on a straight line on the side my mare tends to fall out of the circle, followed by riding a ~15m circle. It helps to reinforce the outside aids.

[beowulf]

@alibi_18

It’s called a half pass.

I think you know the definition of half-pass, but maybe something got lost in reading. For others – half-pass at its most basic definition, is bending in the direction you are traveling. It’s a lateral movement while leg yielding isn’t.Even if you are bending in the direction of travel, you can still be leg-yielding – half-pass is seen more as forward + sideways to a similar degree, and I see much more crossing of the inside hind in half-pass than leg yield.

So to answer OP’s question, yes it is possible – and it is an exercise I do for horses that are crooked quite often, especially if they are ignoring outside aids. As an eventer, I used to do it as a daily exercise with one of my geldings who was residually crooked from a track injury in the poll. He liked to “haul with his shoulders” and this exercise set him up to be more engaged behind. He was on the lazier side and it was a good exercise for him. I believe it was Denny Emerson that first made me do it with him, but honestly it was so long ago I don’t remember. Pretty sure it was him because I learned it around the time I was his WS. It’s a great exercise to really get the horse on the aids, balanced, and listening at the canter too, and can be fundamental in introducing real lateral work.

[pluvinel]

@Carrie94

… So for instance, if a horse is cantering on the right lead, can he leg yield left without doing a flying change?
…

Absolutely. Charles DeKunffy calls the exercise a “plie.” It is used to strengthen the inside hind.

The sequence of footfalls for the right-lead canter are: INDENT left hind (the strike-off leg)
(2) right hind and left fore together,
(3) right fore (leading leg)
(4) followed by a moment of suspension.[/INDENT]

The classic exercise for the plie is to come down the long side, turn down centerline and leg-yield to wall. The more acute the angle the greater the intensity

Variations of the exercise are to leg yield a few strides then 8-m circle, back to leg yield/circle…or to do a zig-zag with leg-yield followed by half-pass back. The leg-yield/half-pass is a gymnastic exercise for working and strengthening the hind legs.

[Samantha37]

I love using this exercise! It’s 100% possible and such a good strength and balance building tool. You just keep your outside leg back to maintain the lead even when you are pushing them away from that leg.

I do all of the leg yields I do at the trot, at the canter including away from the wall (what you are describing), head to the wall leg yield and regular leg yields.

I also really like the leg yield/half pass exercise.

The horse should wait to change for you (easier said than done sometimes) and not auto change just because you change the bend. If you struggle with the leg yields away from the wall, work on counter flexion at the canter on a 20m circle, and going back and forth from true to counter flexion. Then, use counter flexion coming around the short side and let the shoulders fall to the inside away from your outside leg and that will start your leg yield away from the wall.

[Samantha37]

@joiedevie99

It’s a wonderful correction for a horse that throws the shoulder in the half pass, or doesn’t stand up and around the inside leg. Leg yielding towards the lead you are on opens up the shoulder and encourages reach. Leg yielding away from the lead you are on shortens the horse and brings the legs under.

THIS!!!
I do leg yields away from the wall at all 3 gaits almost every time I ride to get my horse upright and his hind legs under.

[merrygoround]

LY at the canter is a strengthening exercise. It is done maintaining say the L lead while moving the whole horse laterally to the right. I

[Carrie94]

@BigMama1

Sure. In her Toronto clinic last weekend Charlotte Dujardin used canter LY quite a bit and says she starts with LY before teaching canter HP because it’s easier for the horse to go sideways in LY.

I was there. However she didn’t once ask any rider to leg yield against a canter lead. Of course I understand the difference between and the benefits of the leg yield and half pass - those weren’t my questions. I’m talking specifically moving the horse against a canter lead. Since the flying change involves us putting our outside leg on to get the horse to sidepass over to the other lead in midair (in a sense), I was just curious about whether it was possible to do technically the same thing with our leg and seat and have the horse leg yield over instead of change leads - AND, if this is possible, as all of you are saying it is, what is the flying change then (technically/physically) and how would the horse know the difference between the two?

[Samantha37]

@Carrie94

I was there. However she didn’t once ask any rider to leg yield against a canter lead. Of course I understand the difference between and the benefits of the leg yield and half pass - those weren’t my questions. I’m talking specifically moving the horse against a canter lead. Since the flying change involves us putting our outside leg on to get the horse to sidepass over to the other lead in midair (in a sense), I was just curious about whether it was possible to do technically the same thing with our leg and seat and have the horse leg yield over instead of change leads - AND, if this is possible, as all of you are saying it is, what is the flying change then (technically/physically) and how would the horse know the difference between the two?

Your legs don’t change position. Your outside leg stays back and you leg yield away from that leg while it’s back. I’m still confirming changes on my horse and I use leg yielding away from the wall (against the canter lead) to get him upright and set us up later on in the ride for the changes. CDJ absolutely does leg yielding against the canter lead in preparation for half pass.

This video is from a lesson (me and my horse) and there is SI/LY away from the wall/HP at the canter all in the first minute or so, additional LY away from the wall around 3:24:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2svjHH5qxE&t=48s

[Carrie94]

@alibi_18

Oupsie, I had a way longer answer than that… it disappeared…

But the OP is talking about a half pass.

Anyway, in short :
@Carrie94

Horses can leg yield, half pass, shoulder-in, haunches-in (travers) and renvers while cantering.

You’ll need to find another way to teach your horse the flying changes.

How’s your horse’s counter canter?
How’s your horse’s simple changes?

I practice counter canter and push them out on a diagonal.

I’m actually teaching him the change out of a counter-canter. He can essentially “do” all of the movements - leg yield, half pass, shoulder in, travers/renvers - but we’re still working on the quality of them and finessing his bend/position through them. He has good simple changes and canter departs and we have gotten some flying changes, but they’re hit and miss.

But this is my problem though - say I’m counter-cantering him right on the left lead, I’ll ask him to change and he’ll move his haunches in instead of following through with the change.

I guess bio-mechanically my understanding of the lead change was that the movement the other way was what got the change, but if you all are doing leg yields against the lead then I’m not sure anymore!

[Carrie94]

So, what’s the difference in aids then, between when you’re asking for a change or the leg yield against the lead?